Newbish n00b questions, MkII

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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby IVhorseman » Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:14 pm

scouts totally work exactly like that.

explosives do too, for free. If you declare it to be a timed or remote-detonated explosive, it simply is.
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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby Kirillyos » Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:30 pm

IVhorseman wrote:scouts totally work exactly like that.

explosives do too, for free. If you declare it to be a timed or remote-detonated explosive, it simply is.


Excellent! :D

95. Would it still need another piece to physically represent the remote detonator/trigger (like the aforementioned radio), so that various sides can vie for control of it like they would for a vehicle's steering wheel?

96. Another question: Any special considerations for ranged attacks against units in CC? Like a penalty to Skill Rolls to avoid accidentally hitting something or someone other than your intended target?
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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby stubby » Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:19 pm

I want to add a note for remote triggers under the Minifig Tools section now.

We had modifiers for firing into CC for awhile, but they turned out not to be worth the effort. Missed Shots do the job well enough.

It's a little different when Squads come into play, but I think that was covered in the 2005 rules.
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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby Kirillyos » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:41 pm

stubby wrote:I want to add a note for remote triggers under the Minifig Tools section now.


Glad to be of help.

stubby wrote:We had modifiers for firing into CC for awhile, but they turned out not to be worth the effort. Missed Shots do the job well enough.


Good point.
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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby Kirillyos » Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:56 pm

97. I know that robots, undead, etc. aren't affected by certain environmental hazards (drowning, poison gas, etc). What if I wanted to extend such immunity to minifig troops via equipment (Environmentally Sealed Armor). Should I pay extra for that feature, or is that just a function of "this guy has a sealed helmet visor and airtanks - he can survive hostile environmental conditions!"

98. Do weapons integrated into a minifig's armor count against its ranged weapon use for the turn/round or are those treated more like vehicle weapons? Like if my Iron Man minifig is firing a chest-mounted UniBeam - can he do that in addition to other ranged weapons, or does that take Multitasking?

99. Can I get a bit of clarification on the topic of firing multiple weapons from a vehicle?

So in the 2010 Rulebook, the Vehicles section says:
2010 Rulebook wrote:
Systems
Assuming he has access to the proper Controls, a minifig can use its Action to control one (and only one) System on a Creation, against a single target (if any). This System may be any one of the following:
Ranged Weapons: firing a single weapon, or a paired set of identical weapons, at a single target


But the Weaponry section says:

2010 Rulebook wrote:Due to power limitations, a Creation can only use as many inches of Weapons as twice its own Size. The Creation can be overloaded with as many Weapons as its player is willing to pay for, but on any given turn it can only use a selection of them that fits within this limit.


So does that mean I'd need multiple gunners for multiple weapon types?
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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby IVhorseman » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:15 am

Vehicle weapons aren't treated any different: each one takes one action to use. Vehicles can use up to 2x (size) inches of total weaponry, but each weapon still takes a separate action, and usually a separate operator at the controls. There used to be a single exception where twin-linked weapons (identical mounted weapons like a dual machinegun on each wingtip of a fighter jet, for example) could be both fired at a single target, but that seems to have disappeared a while ago since I can't find it. I wouldn't be surprised if it was removed due to bullshit abuse, since most of the time when I introduce that concept to players they build a set of linked weapons where four machineguns would all be hooked together for maximum horseshit.

Either way, that means your minifig's suit does not magically let him fire more weapons, unless it magically gives him an extra action as well. Stop trying to find a workaround to multiple ranged attacks.

Environmental suits are too situationally-specific to have a set cost. Most of the time, minifigs don't regularly encounter toxic gas, drowning, or any of the other lame forms of "damage" since they've ideally been shot by turn 3. So most of the time I'd just leave it as free, unless such hazards present a major impact on the game. A game that takes place on spaceships, for example, might conceivably cost 1-2 CP for a pressure suit that stops a minifig from dying as soon as the hull gets breached. I'd never charge more than 2. Maybe you could count it as a tool?
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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby IVhorseman » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:22 am

Since I know you're going to salivate over the thought of linked weapons since you seem to have a fix towards multiple weapons per turn in any way possible, here's my current(ly untested) thoughts of how linked weapons COULD work.

Linked weapons may be fired simultaneously at a single target, provided that they are identical in every way other than placement. The weapons MUST be fired at the same target, though the spread from a machinegun/blastgun might cover more space.

Each gun is treated as a weapon of it's own size in every way other than use rating: in this case, the use rating is equal to what it would be for a weapon as big as all of the guns put together. That means that with 4 linked 1" guns, each shot is as hard to make as one shot from a 4" gun. They still have the damage, range, and CP cost as a standard gun of that size.
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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby Kirillyos » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:33 am

IVhorseman wrote:Vehicle weapons aren't treated any different: each one takes one action to use. Vehicles can use up to 2x (size) inches of total weaponry, but each weapon still takes a separate action, and usually a separate operator at the controls. There used to be a single exception where twin-linked weapons (identical mounted weapons like a dual machinegun on each wingtip of a fighter jet, for example) could be both fired at a single target, but that seems to have disappeared a while ago since I can't find it.


It's right here where I quoted it from.


IVhorseman wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if it was removed due to bullshit abuse, since most of the time when I introduce that concept to players they build a set of linked weapons where four machineguns would all be hooked together for maximum horseshit.


That would seem like a blatant violation of RAW (Rules As Written). I mean, it says "pair" which means 2, not 4. N00bs should learn to count.

IVhorseman wrote:Either way, that means your minifig's suit does not magically let him fire more weapons, unless it magically gives him an extra action as well.


Separate question, I just post these as they pop into my head or as they come up in playtesting or battles. I've got a few minifigs with armor that looks like it could have integrated weapons (like a bird-man from a Chima set), so I figured I'd throw the question out there.


IVhorseman wrote: Stop trying to find a workaround to multiple ranged attacks.


I wasn't. Not sure where you got that idea. ~confused~


IVhorseman wrote:Environmental suits are too situationally-specific to have a set cost. Most of the time, minifigs don't regularly encounter toxic gas, drowning, or any of the other lame forms of "damage" since they've ideally been shot by turn 3. So most of the time I'd just leave it as free, unless such hazards present a major impact on the game. A game that takes place on spaceships, for example, might conceivably cost 1-2 CP for a pressure suit that stops a minifig from dying as soon as the hull gets breached. I'd never charge more than 2. Maybe you could count it as a tool?


Fair enough. I suppose on battlefields with certain hazards, one or more sides might come prepared.
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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby stubby » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:38 am

Kirillyos wrote:97. I know that robots, undead, etc. aren't affected by certain environmental hazards (drowning, poison gas, etc). What if I wanted to extend such immunity to minifig troops via equipment (Environmentally Sealed Armor). Should I pay extra for that feature, or is that just a function of "this guy has a sealed helmet visor and airtanks - he can survive hostile environmental conditions!"

I've always left that as a function of helmet and airtanks and not worried about it. Even the visor doesn't matter so much; classic spacemen did just fine without them.

In original brikwars 1.0, you didn't even need that much, if you were a space pirate. You could walk around on the decks in outer space with nothing more than a handkerchief and a bad shave.

Kirillyos wrote:98. Do weapons integrated into a minifig's armor count against its ranged weapon use for the turn/round or are those treated more like vehicle weapons? Like if my Iron Man minifig is firing a chest-mounted UniBeam - can he do that in addition to other ranged weapons, or does that take Multitasking?

All weapons are the same. Firing a hand weapon costs an action. Firing a vehicle weapon costs an action. If you have two actions, you can fire two weapons.

Kirillyos wrote:99. Can I get a bit of clarification on the topic of firing multiple weapons from a vehicle?

So in the 2010 Rulebook, the Vehicles section says:
2010 Rulebook wrote:
Systems
Assuming he has access to the proper Controls, a minifig can use its Action to control one (and only one) System on a Creation, against a single target (if any). This System may be any one of the following:
Ranged Weapons: firing a single weapon, or a paired set of identical weapons, at a single target

That's right. Despite IVhorseman's objections, firing paired weapons isn't unbalanced compared to firing a single weapon of twice the size. You get a lower Use rating, but you have to roll it twice for the full effect, and the range is generally much lower.

Kirillyos wrote:But the Weaponry section says:

2010 Rulebook wrote:Due to power limitations, a Creation can only use as many inches of Weapons as twice its own Size. The Creation can be overloaded with as many Weapons as its player is willing to pay for, but on any given turn it can only use a selection of them that fits within this limit.


So does that mean I'd need multiple gunners for multiple weapon types?

Yep. A Creation can fire a number of weapons limited by its Size, but it needs separate gunners for each of them.
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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby stubby » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:40 am

Your next question will be the 100th question. Choose wisely.
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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby IVhorseman » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:56 am

Kirillyos wrote:
IVhorseman wrote: Stop trying to find a workaround to


I wasn't. Not sure where you got that idea. ~confused~


It seems like every third question of yours revolves around the concept of "I WANT MY GUY TO SHOOT A BUNCH OF TIMES IN A TURN, WHAT ABOUT THIS EXCEPTION" when it's literally a 2 CP ability to allow exactly that. Hell, if you're not playing with CP (like good brikwarriors should), you can simply declare "this guy is a multidexterous multitasker" and be done with it.

Paired weapons seem a little too strong in every game I've had them in. Sure there's a shorter range, but if all I have to do is get closer to a target to do the same amount of damage at what's usually around half the UR (per shot), I'm at a massive advantage.

Krillyos, worrying about RAW is what's going to prevent you from having creativity in your games. As much as I harp about the proper interpretation of the rules, finding homebrew workarounds is one of the beauties of the game of Brikwars. When I build a brikwars vehicle, it's always always always build first, stat later. If I end up building a ship with a sick-ass quad turbo-laser, I want to treat it as one. Sure, I could just call it a size 4 gun and be done with it, but firing four size 1 guns is sometimes exactly what I feel like doing. In cases like that, it's best to bend the rules a little bit and have fun instead of declaring it illegal and taking apart the kickass gun I built.
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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby Kirillyos » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:47 am

stubby wrote:I've always left that as a function of helmet and airtanks and not worried about it. Even the visor doesn't matter so much; classic spacemen did just fine without them.

In original brikwars 1.0, you didn't even need that much, if you were a space pirate. You could walk around on the decks in outer space with nothing more than a handkerchief and a bad shave.


lol, like in SpellJammer?

stubby wrote:Yep. A Creation can fire a number of weapons limited by its Size, but it needs separate gunners for each of them.


See, I was confused because on the "Ranged combat - Can I fire several weapons?" thread you had said:

stubby wrote:The Gunner may fire as many of the tank's ranged weapons as he likes at the minifig, up to the size limit of the tank.


stubby wrote:Your next question will be the 100th question. Choose wisely.

100. You've been keeping track? Seriously? Then again, calculating things that no one else bothers to calculate is part of what we nerds do, so this is not unexpected.

Edit: Went back and looked through the thread and noticed that the questions have been re-numbered. Albeit, not all those questions were mine.
Last edited by Kirillyos on Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby Kirillyos » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:03 am

IVhorseman wrote:It seems like every third question of yours revolves around the concept of "I WANT MY GUY TO SHOOT A BUNCH OF TIMES IN A TURN, WHAT ABOUT THIS EXCEPTION" when it's literally a 2 CP ability to allow exactly that. Hell, if you're not playing with CP (like good brikwarriors should), you can simply declare "this guy is a multidexterous multitasker" and be done with it.


C'mon, be fair - plenty of my questions are about blowing things up in new and interesting ways. :lol:

It may not seem obvious, but English is not my native tongue. Try reading an intricate set of wargame rules in Russian and see if no part of it confuses you a bit. I don't ask these questions just because it's my mission in life to drive you crazy.

Besides, I and many of those in my gamer group that I've been introducing to BrikWars come from an RPG background, and part of the fun for us is to stat things out creatively - that includes coming up with new stats just for shiggles. Most of those experimental concepts don't make it out of playtesting, but it's the journey that matters.

IVhorseman wrote:Krillyos, worrying about RAW is what's going to prevent you from having creativity in your games. As much as I harp about the proper interpretation of the rules, finding homebrew workarounds is one of the beauties of the game of Brikwars.


And then when I try to find workarounds, you give me flak for that. Can you at least make up your mind which one you're going to ride my ass about? lol

IVhorseman wrote:When I build a brikwars vehicle, it's always always always build first, stat later.


Yeah, that's the way I do it too. We're not in disagreement on this part, bro.

Now, I might design something to a certain overall effect. For example, if I want to make a breaching team, I might give them a vehicle that was fast, had a battering ram as a Melee Weapon on the front that deployed a boarding ramp (for colliding a hole in structures and hopping inside), plenty of explosives, a launcher, rockets, and an engineer or two, but I don't know what the size of the vehicle or the ram are going to be until I build it.

IVhorseman wrote: If I end up building a ship with a sick-ass quad turbo-laser, I want to treat it as one. Sure, I could just call it a size 4 gun and be done with it, but firing four size 1 guns is sometimes exactly what I feel like doing. In cases like that, it's best to bend the rules a little bit and have fun instead of declaring it illegal and taking apart the kickass gun I built.


Seems it'd be perfectly legit with 2 gunners, or a gunner with Multitasking, or a well-trained monkey.
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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby Zupponn » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:16 pm

I think you're not getting something about the rules.

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Re: Newbish n00b questions, MkII

Postby Kirillyos » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:06 pm

So this whole "Guideline-Book" Sub-Forum is really more for arguing about whether or not we should argue about the "rules" in the first place? :lol:
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