Guided missiles?

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Guided missiles?

Postby Battlegrinder » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:27 pm

Has anyone ever tried to create guided missiles? I'm considering fitting a few to some of my ground-attack aircraft to help them fend of airborne attackers (all their launchers are forward-facing, and in most cases I don't have the room to fit a rotating missile turret), and it seems like it would simple enough to build one, all you'd need would be enough CP for a Mind (and maybe a few inches of move to let it maneuver). I've seen people create AI controlled guns before, so the basic theory of weapon+mind=awesome is sound, but I don't recall ever seeing someone try this (exempting IVhorseman's missile lock skill, but that's just an increased skill roll, not something that lets a missile chase someone down after its been fired).
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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby aoffan23 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:21 pm

Just to be clear, you're talking about a missile that acts as a flying creature rather than a projectile?

If that's what you're going for, then I'd just buy it as a flying creature with an explosive on its face. pay for size, movement, mind, and the explosive and you're good to go. The only special restriction I'd put on it is that it has to move its full movement distance, although I can't really think of a situation where you'd want to. If you were using a missile that had to be guided by a minifig, then I'd say that every turn the missile is in the air, the minifig would have to roll for skill before being able to manoeuvre it. Failing the skill roll would cause the missile to go straight until it hit something, and the minifig wouldn't be able to regain control. The missile would be able to go around obstacles, but regular blind fire penalties would apply.

If you wanted to get really technical, I know there are rules for individual thrusters and turn radii, but it probably wouldn't be worth it on any missile that isn't an important element of the game. Just don't be a jerk and say that your missile can go around a corner and pull a blind 180-degree turn into a doorway and up the stairs.
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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby Battlegrinder » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:38 pm

That's more or less what I was thinking. Specifically, I want something that the pilot/driver/gunner can spend an action to launch, and the the missile will hunt down its target independently (so the to-hit and damage rolls would technically be made by the missile, not the guy who fired it, leaving him free to do other stuff). The reason I wanted to go with the "missile with a mind" vs "creature with a bomb" was mostly related to cost, as those move inches tend to add up fast. I wasn't planning on having the missile be fully guided by a minifig, it was more along the lines of only being intelligent as long it was getting guidance data from it's launcher (so it would only count as being a full mind within x inches of whatever shot it, other wise it would go to half mind). I'm probably going to have them all be full minds anyway, fire-and-forgot missiles sound like a better idea. I'll probably run a few field tests and see how it works out.
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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby stubby » Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:27 am

Fire and forget is a good use for a programmed Half Mind - you plug in the target and launch it, and afterwards it seeks the target autonomously.
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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby Kirillyos » Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:35 am

2010 Rulebook wrote:Half Minds
...
A Programmed Creature is limited in its ability to make complex strategic decisions, and instead follows a simple set of behaviors. Simple Creatures are given a list of behaviors at the beginning of the battle, and may only behave in accordance with those instructions. A Simple behavior must be fairly specific: “Move to the nearest wounded allies and attempt to heal them” or “Stay close to the nearest allied troops and fire at enemy combatants” are fine Simple behaviors; “Defeat all enemies” and “Win the battle” are not. Random animals and wildlife are often made Simple for efficiency’s sake, with short behaviors like “flee from any nearby threat” or “if it's nearby and looks edible, try to eat it.”

While not technically Creatures, traps and mechanized defense systems are often given Simple behaviors as well, such as "fire at anything in range and moving" or "if intelligent life is detected, release deadly neurotoxin gas."

A Programmed Creature is Useful as long as it has a Program to execute. Deleting the program or tricking it into a paradox can cause the Creature to go haywire.

Examples: Kill-bots, golems, summoned elementals, guard dogs, mind-control victims, bureaucrats, sheep


And since a smart-missile is essentially a kill-bot that explodes, a half-mind is all it really needs.

A full-mind missile ought to be able to have a nice, civil chat with its target before killing them, James-Bond-villain-style "nothing personal ol' chap. We both knew this day would come for us eventually - just part of the job. See you on the other side, wot!"
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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby Voin » Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:03 pm

I was actually considering making a "smart missile" that would have a charging weapon on the front for breaking through armor/bunkers (maybe even penis up the CP to make it Armor Piercing via SN d12) and a big ol' thruster for getting to the target quickly and cheaply.

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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby Battlegrinder » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:11 pm

Would you really need a guided missile to hit a bunker? Smart missiles may or may not end up being useful for hitting a moving target, but as I recall, hitting a massive, stationary bunker wouldn't really require something like that.
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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby Voin » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:51 pm

Maybe it's a "mobile bunker" like a dreadnaught, capital ship, superheavy mech, or rolling fortress?
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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby Battlegrinder » Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:20 pm

If your target is that big, the to-hit bonus from being a big target should be all you need, and if by some freak chance you miss that, tracking the missed shot should still let you hit it (and plus, even if it is mobile, it still won't be going fast). And super-massive vehicles are so rare, making up rules for a special weapon to counter them is a waste of time. And worst off all, any missile large enough to do reasonable amounts of damage to a super-unit would be so large, the target and/or its escorts would likely be able to shoot it down before it got close.

If you really want to kill a superheavy unit, there are way better weapons to use. I'm working on stating out some commandos who's sole job will be to charge up to tanks and other vehicles, rip open the hatches, and give the occupants some free grenades (and then stick the hatches back on and commandeer the tank :twisted: ), but if you don't want to do it the manly way, component damaging the guns and wheels is also a good solution.
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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby Voin » Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:46 am

Battlegrinder wrote:If your target is that big, the to-hit bonus from being a big target should be all you need, and if by some freak chance you miss that, tracking the missed shot should still let you hit it (and plus, even if it is mobile, it still won't be going fast). And super-massive vehicles are so rare, making up rules for a special weapon to counter them is a waste of time. And worst off all, any missile large enough to do reasonable amounts of damage to a super-unit would be so large, the target and/or its escorts would likely be able to shoot it down before it got close.


Pourquoi pas?
I mean yeah, it would be overkill, and there might be more sensible ways of getting the job done, but at the the end of the day, if you haven't lobbed a ginormous dick-missile at your enemies, what have you really accomplished?

Battlegrinder wrote:If you really want to kill a superheavy unit, there are way better weapons to use. I'm working on stating out some commandos who's sole job will be to charge up to tanks and other vehicles, rip open the hatches, and give the occupants some free grenades (and then stick the hatches back on and commandeer the tank :twisted: ), but if you don't want to do it the manly way, component damaging the guns and wheels is also a good solution.


Oh yes - on the actual tactically reasonable side of things, I've been kicking around a few "breaching squad" ideas myself.
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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby Battlegrinder » Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:05 am

Voin wrote:Oh yes - on the actual tactically reasonable side of things, I've been kicking around a few "breaching squad" ideas myself.


Reasonable: "Enemy tank. mobile our own tanks, and call in air support. Deploy our light armor to harass it in the meantime, and tell the gunners to concentrate fire on the enemy tank's treads and guns."


Not reasonable: "Son, I want you to charge toward that massive, heavily armed tank surrounded by ground troops and light vehicles, putting you in the line of fire for dozens of guns that can easily kill you. Provided you survive that, you'll need to climb up to the tank's hatches while wearing massive, movement reducing body armor, still under fire from anyone in range, and several people who aren't. After that, you'll need to pry open the tanks hatch, and toss this explosive inside. Then, jump into the tank, kill anyone who survived the grenades, conduct field repairs on the controls in the event they were damaged in the fighting, repair the hatch if you've got the time, then drive the tank through the enemy forces (who are now throwing everything they've got at you) and back to our own lines. You'll likely need to fight off several counter-boardings along the way. Good luck, we're counting on you."


That said, if you can get them into the right spot, a few squads of elite infantry can really ruin someone's day. Its the "getting them in the right spot" part that's so tricky.
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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby Silverdream » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:03 pm

Voin wrote:I was actually considering making a "smart missile" that would have a charging weapon on the front for breaking through armor/bunkers (maybe even penis up the CP to make it Armor Piercing via SN d12) and a big ol' thruster for getting to the target quickly and cheaply.


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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby Voin » Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:15 pm

Battlegrinder wrote:
Voin wrote:Oh yes - on the actual tactically reasonable side of things, I've been kicking around a few "breaching squad" ideas myself.


Not reasonable: "Son, I want you to charge toward that massive, heavily armed tank surrounded by ground troops and light vehicles, putting you in the line of fire for dozens of guns that can easily kill you. Provided you survive that, you'll need to climb up to the tank's hatches while wearing massive, movement reducing body armor, still under fire from anyone in range, and several people who aren't. After that, you'll need to pry open the tanks hatch, and toss this explosive inside. Then, jump into the tank, kill anyone who survived the grenades, conduct field repairs on the controls in the event they were damaged in the fighting, repair the hatch if you've got the time, then drive the tank through the enemy forces (who are now throwing everything they've got at you) and back to our own lines. You'll likely need to fight off several counter-boardings along the way. Good luck, we're counting on you."


That's... not quite what I had in mind. Said breaching squads would not be just anti-tank, but be used for all-around boarding of hardened enemy structures. Their load-out would include something like:

6. A reasonably fast vehicle (to shelter the squad) with a battering ram (charging weapon) and a boarding ramp that would deploy directly after the battering ram penetrates the outer shell of the target. I might even use IVHorseman's "Assault Tank" idea and make the vehicle have 4d10 armor in the front, and 2d10 in the back (since retreat isn't an option).

7. Explosives (of course) for softening up the target.

8. BlastGuns for close-up fighting against tightly-grouped enemy crew - may even be mounted version with Heavy operating behind a shield.

9. Decoy drones to keep the target busy and use up its inches of Armor plating and/or Shield Generators.

10. Poison sprayers - like flamethrowers, good for killing infantry while leaving material largely undamaged, but won't spread out of control like flames. Breaching team may need environment suits if deploying these.

11. Random tools (Drills, prybars, buzz-saws, etc).

12. and maybe even this thing I came up with:

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The crew themselves would consist of a good mix of Scouts (for sneaking and disabling traps), Engineers (for removing enemy armor plating and kitbashing new controls to take over), Pilots (for piloting breaching vehicle and then the new acquisition if need be), Gunners/Heavies (for manning guns on the way in, obviously, and taking control of new systems), and possibly an Officer to coordinate them. If they're going after a high-priority target (like a Command Vessel) , I may assign them SuperNatural Technomancer (or whatever the appropriate equivalent would be in the setting) to take control of enemy systems.

Anyway, that's just some ideas I had off the top of my head, and this mix has yet to be tested in large-scale combat (though when I get to that, I'll let y'all know how they do).

This is by no means the only or best way of getting the breaching function done (and will probably be quite pricey, CP-wise). If anyone has other ideas on this, by all means, let them be heard.
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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby Battlegrinder » Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:23 pm

Voin wrote:That's... not quite what I had in mind. Said breaching squads would not be just anti-tank, but be used for all-around boarding of hardened enemy structures. Their load-out would include something like:


That was what my squad is going to be doing, not what I though your's was. Sorry for the confusion.

Voin wrote:6. A reasonably fast vehicle (to shelter the squad) with a battering ram (charging weapon) and a boarding ramp that would deploy directly after the battering ram penetrates the outer shell of the target. I might even use IVHorseman's "Assault Tank" idea and make the vehicle have 4d10 armor in the front, and 2d10 in the back (since retreat isn't an option).

7. Explosives (of course) for softening up the target.

8. BlastGuns for close-up fighting against tightly-grouped enemy crew - may even be mounted version with Heavy operating behind a shield.

9. Decoy drones to keep the target busy and use up its inches of Armor plating and/or Shield Generators.

10. Poison sprayers - like flamethrowers, good for killing infantry while leaving material largely undamaged, but won't spread out of control like flames. Breaching team may need environment suits if deploying these.

11. Random tools (Drills, prybars, buzz-saws, etc).

12. and maybe even this thing I came up with:

The crew themselves would consist of a good mix of Scouts (for sneaking and disabling traps), Engineers (for removing enemy armor plating and kitbashing new controls to take over), Pilots (for piloting breaching vehicle and then the new acquisition if need be), Gunners/Heavies (for manning guns on the way in, obviously, and taking control of new systems), and possibly an Officer to coordinate them. If they're going after a high-priority target (like a Command Vessel) , I may assign them SuperNatural Technomancer (or whatever the appropriate equivalent would be in the setting) to take control of enemy systems.

Anyway, that's just some ideas I had off the top of my head, and this mix has yet to be tested in large-scale combat (though when I get to that, I'll let y'all know how they do).

This is by no means the only or best way of getting the breaching function done (and will probably be quite pricey, CP-wise). If anyone has other ideas on this, by all means, let them be heard.



6. For the vehicle, I'd suggest swapping out the battering ram for explosive charges of some kind (I'm pretty someone's worked up rules for shaped charges at some point). Blasting through a wall will be much more effective than just knocking a hole in it, since it will likely make a bigger hole, and stands a better chance of killing a few people inside. Sending a scout in to plant explosive charges right by the wall might be an even easier way, but building the lego equivalent of the Caestus Assault Ram is probably the more Brikwars solution.

7. Using explosive inside the target might not be a wise idea. Given how small the interiors of even the largest vehicles/buildings are, you stand a good chance of killing your own squad (and if its so huge that you won't risk killing your own guys, then you should be able to get regular troops inside pretty easily).

8. Make sure to bring some melee weapons along too. Blastguns have a very high friendly fire risk.

9. You proably don't need decoy drones. Just have the rest of your units outside blast away at exposed components.

10. Good idea, but the average bunker or star cruiser won't be all the flammable anyway, so flamethrowers might be OK. Plus, poison clouds will make it hard for you to send regular troops to back up your breaching squad.

11. Unless you have a medix or mechanik, don’t waste the points on those.

12. Cool idea, but I think a regular grenade would do just as well. I don’t really see much use for such a specialized weapon.

As for personal, remember that you can purchase multiple traits for the same unit, which will be cheaper than sending in 2 specialists. And you shouldn't need more than 2 or 3 guys to secure the average (or even an above average) target. I can think of only 1 or 2 units that might take more than that, and you won’t be running into either of them. If you somehow do end up fighting something that big, I’d suggest you go with regular troops for the most part, as you’ll need a lot of guys to successful storm on (also, I’d replace the technomancer with someone who can teleport in more of your own troops. The extra manpower will be much more valuable than an overcosted mechanik).

Here’s a link to a forum battle revolving around a unit big enough to actually launch a boarding assault against. You might learn a lot from it (keep in mind that the tank in question is, to my knowledge, the biggest tank to ever be deployed).
http://www.brikwars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10213&p=233122&hilit=operation+blau#p233122
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Re: Guided missiles?

Postby Voin » Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:54 pm

Battlegrinder wrote:That was what my squad is going to be doing, not what I though your's was. Sorry for the confusion.


Ah, that's understandable.

Battlegrinder wrote:6. For the vehicle, I'd suggest swapping out the battering ram for explosive charges of some kind (I'm pretty someone's worked up rules for shaped charges at some point). Blasting through a wall will be much more effective than just knocking a hole in it, since it will likely make a bigger hole, and stands a better chance of killing a few people inside. Sending a scout in to plant explosive charges right by the wall might be an even easier way, but building the lego equivalent of the Caestus Assault Ram is probably the more Brikwars solution.


Yeah, but if the overall goal is to capture the structure, I want my prize mostly intact.

Battlegrinder wrote:7. Using explosive inside the target might not be a wise idea. Given how small the interiors of even the largest vehicles/buildings are, you stand a good chance of killing your own squad (and if its so huge that you won't risk killing your own guys, then you should be able to get regular troops inside pretty easily).


I didn't say explosives for the inside. A few rockets to soften up the armor casing on the hull, however...

Battlegrinder wrote:8. Make sure to bring some melee weapons along too. Blastguns have a very high friendly fire risk.


Naturally. I like the bayonet option from IVHorseman's Plastic Armory - saves on hands with which to carry stuff.

Battlegrinder wrote:9. You proably don't need decoy drones. Just have the rest of your units outside blast away at exposed components.


You know how easy it is to go overboard on military spending for a bunch of crap you don't need just because it sounds fun...

Battlegrinder wrote:10. Good idea, but the average bunker or star cruiser won't be all the flammable anyway, so flamethrowers might be OK. Plus, poison clouds will make it hard for you to send regular troops to back up your breaching squad.


Eh, maybe I'll use acid, since it doesn't spread.

Battlegrinder wrote:11. Unless you have a medix or mechanik, don’t waste the points on those.


Obviously - but you've already seen my ideas for the crew. Engineers /Mechanix are integral to the breaching squad.

Battlegrinder wrote:
12. Cool idea, but I think a regular grenade would do just as well. I don’t really see much use for such a specialized weapon.


The point is to perforate infantry without doing too much collateral damage to valuable materiel that I may want to capture.

Battlegrinder wrote:As for personal personnel, remember that you can purchase multiple traits for the same unit, which will be cheaper than sending in 2 specialists. And you shouldn't need more than 2 or 3 guys to secure the average (or even an above average) target. I can think of only 1 or 2 units that might take more than that, and you won’t be running into either of them. If you somehow do end up fighting something that big, I’d suggest you go with regular troops for the most part, as you’ll need a lot of guys to successful storm on (also, I’d replace the technomancer with someone who can teleport in more of your own troops. The extra manpower will be much more valuable than an overcosted mechanik).


I know (the unit names were referring to their functions) - I'm a big fan of making "Swiss Army Soldiers" with numerous special functions piled in (not actual soldiers that serve in the Swiss Army, although I hear those are quite badass too).

Of course, remember that life is cheap in BrikWars, killing things is easy, units can usually only do one action per turn, and battles tend to not last for very many turns. An attack that wipes out your Pilot might leave your Mechanik to carry on the mission, but not if the Pilot and Mechanik were the same fig.

Battlegrinder wrote:Here’s a link to a forum battle revolving around a unit big enough to actually launch a boarding assault against. You might learn a lot from it (keep in mind that the tank in question is, to my knowledge, the biggest tank to ever be deployed).
http://www.brikwars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10213&p=233122&hilit=operation+blau#p233122


Thanks! That looks like a fun battle - I'll have to check it out in more detail after I get back from game night.
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