Automatic fire!

Rules questions, suggestions, and discussion

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Postby Rayhawk » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:13 pm

It might be easier, instead of having a different UR for each shot, to instead keep the same UR and roll different dice. Say a special UR of 8, but you roll 1d12, 1d10, 1d8, 1d6, and the rest 1d4s (after the first couple you can only hit on a critical success of course). That way you can roll them all at once.
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Postby IVhorseman » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:14 pm

well it's not my radial fire that i'm worried about. i think i have that more or less down. it's just that damn "pumping an individual full of lead" that's got me.

i'm thinking about doing something just using larger dice and subtracted damages (more bullets is hypothetically more damage but has higher variance than single shots, much like larger dice). i've been considering just having autofire simply replacing all d6s with d8s, d10s etc. for automatic fire. i may or may not playtest this soon.
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Postby piltogg » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:59 pm

that is probally the best idea so far
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Postby IVhorseman » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:31 am

mine or mike's? i have to admit i like mikes: throwing lots of dice conveys the sense of shooting lots of bullets. only problem is it requires memorization of a special UR.

now with my rules, it uses the exact same UR (i think. i'm still debating whether or not to increase or decrease the UR by one or two points), and just replaces all d6s in damage with different dice. higher damage in theory, but more varied amounts of damage dealt - also similar to automatic fire weapons.

which of these is better? i don't know. just the amount of dice i'd be required to roll with mike's plan haunts me, but the probability of hitting or missing with regular UR and missing out on a d20's worth of damage, or the sheer massive amounts of damage it could cause (one of my older methods was increased UR every shot, and minifigs fired until they got a critical failure. the reason i ditched it was when a minifig dealt 22d6 damage in one turn). i'll probably playtest them both, then come back to you later.
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Postby Gladius » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:06 pm

Hi everybody- first post!

For a gun like say, a submachinegun, I generally consider the amount of damage it does a reasonable burst of fire, so the extra bullets are already kinda worked in.

But for a sweet machinegun turret, if it wants wide-spread fire in a single turn , then I have some Usage mods.

For a single target in a straight line, there is no mod (+/- 0)
For a 10-degree cone fire [hooray for protractors] the mod is +1 Usage (so a gun with usage 4 goes to 5 to hit everything, with damage done for each target)

20-degree cone is +2 usage
30-degree cone is +3 usage
40-degree cone is +4 usage
etc. etc. up as high as you want to go. It's simple, and I like it.
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Postby Olothontor » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:45 pm

Hmm, I still like kidko's plan of just having three shots whenever it fires, rolling separately for each shot and damage (3d6 for use [use of 3, 4 for long range] and then 3d6 for damage [3d6+3 for heavy weaponry]). And then saying that each shot can aim at a different minifig, as long as it's within range. It's a lot simpler than sitting down and using a protractor (no offense, if that's how you want to play it, then by all means, go ahead).
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Postby Rayhawk » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:14 pm

The usage increase at greater angles is pretty close to what we had in the 2001 rules, but Olothontor (honoroary THE MAN) is right about the protractors being a pain in the butt. My favorite solution by far is still IVhorseman's finger measurement idea over on the Frappr thread:

http://www.frappr.com/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... 76456e977d

Since then I've noticed that people have different amounts of flexibility between different fingers, so I'm thinking now that instead of picking specific fingers, it's better to just simplify down to number of fingers used:

Angle of any 2 fingers (no thumb, palm flat): +2 Use
Any 3 fingers: +3 Use
All 4 fingers: +4 Use
Thumb + 1 finger: +5 Use
Thumb +2 fingers: +6 Use
Thumb +3 fingers: +7 Use
Thumb + all 4 fingers: +8 Use
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Postby IVhorseman » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:34 pm

eh. i wouldn't even say specific fingers as much as adjacent fingers. as in, when you say two fingers, you don't mean "forefinger and pinky, lol".

and when you say thumb + fingers, do you mean palm flat or open? because palm flat 4 fingers is wider than PF one finger and a thumb by a wide margin.

honestly, i'd just count fingers, and just max it out at +5 with the thumb. i guess +6 if you want to get rid of the flat palm rule (this comes out to about 180 degrees for me).

oh, and as for flexibility differences? if you have less flexible fingers, you are a less good brikwarrior. if you're that booty bothered about your wimpy fingers, slash your tendons with a knife so you can stretch farther, wimp.
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Postby Rayhawk » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:02 pm

IVhorseman wrote:and when you say thumb + fingers, do you mean palm flat or open? because palm flat 4 fingers is wider than PF one finger and a thumb by a wide margin.

Really? For me 4 fingers comes out to just under 90 degrees, while thumb and forefinger is just over 90 degrees. But maxing out at +5 is probably the simpler option.

IVhorseman wrote:oh, and as for flexibility differences? if you have less flexible fingers, you are a less good brikwarrior. if you're that booty bothered about your wimpy fingers, slash your tendons with a knife so you can stretch farther, wimp.

lol
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Postby IVhorseman » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:33 pm

.... dammit, now i'm coming to about 90 as well. odd, because this afternoon i could have sworn it was close to the 110-120 range!

but screw it. i still suggest capping at +5 for simplicity's sake, and lets be honest: minifigs firing at +8 to UR are going to miss anything they aim at. maybe not size 8 vehicles, but then why are they going for an arced fire against one large target?
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Postby Sir Billingsly » Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:07 pm

Hi all,
what about the following system:

two suggestions first,
1) It is easier to hit a specific Target with an multitude of shot's than with a single bullt/beam etc.

2) It is hard to hit the target with more than one or two bullet's because of the Weapon jumping around in your hands.

So if you give a Weapon the 'automatic fire' special (a Pistol in this Example) it's Cost is doubled and it's UR reduce by 1 (or 2)
If you hit the (single) Target you aimed at, the Weapon gets a Damage bonus according to the Success grade of the die roll.
Sounds complicated eh? But it isn't.

Example:

Rambrik the mighty submachine wielding Battlelord ist firing at his Oponent , a nameless yellow minifig. his UR is 2 and being a Hero he has a Skill of d10.

he roll's a 6 and so has a successgrade of 4 (the difference between UR and skill roll) and this four pts. is the damage bonus he get's on his Weapon's damage. (or if like more overkill use 4 d6 bonus)

What do you think about this?


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Postby IVhorseman » Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:34 pm

... you know, that just might do it! so lets see... we have a standard rifle with a UR of 3, and bring it's autofire down to a UR of two. a standard minifig rolls a 4, and ends with +2 points of bonus autofire damage.

sounds great! wow! i'm just completely awestruck now. your first post and you come up with this genius. i will definitely be playtesting this to see whether +1 or +1d6 is more appropriate. right now i'm leaning towards +1, but +1d6 seems more realistic when compared bullet-for-bullet. then again, minifigs usually survive by only 2 or 3 points of armor, and this would compensate for minifigs opening up rapid fire onto vehicles to do far more damage than they should be able to do.

so far, this is my favorite set of rules for it though.
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Postby Olothontor » Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:41 pm

Absolutely amazing. Please, speak more, I live to read your posts.

This is me, groveling in awe.
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Postby IVhorseman » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:02 am

ok, so i've determined two things. the first is that +1 is the better stats to go with. the second is that when doing the whole arc fire spray and pray thing, give it special UR, then add penalties for cone size.

these are also officially my new rules. i haven't tested em against an actual opponent, but it's both A) easy to use and B) easy to explain.

the only thing i want to add is something so that friendly and neutral units get caught by stray bullets. maybe units within 1" need to make a skill check to avoid taking damage, and if failed they take full damage from a single shot.
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Postby Rayhawk » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:46 am

Sounds good, I'm going to give this system some further thought. I like having the damage increase related to Skill, but I also want to account for the following:

1. a way to have some of the missed shots from that burst hit other targets in the area.
2. more or fewer shots hitting larger or smaller targets, probably by adding some multiplier of the size bonus or penalty to the damage roll
3. how is burst shot damage distributed against a Squad?
4. also, we know from A-Team and G.I.Joe that automatic fire always misses against single targets, unless they're explosive fuel barrels or robots; how to account for this?
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