Automatic fire!

Rules questions, suggestions, and discussion

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Postby IVhorseman » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:58 am

Rayhawk wrote:Sounds good, I'm going to give this system some further thought. I like having the damage increase related to Skill, but I also want to account for the following:

1. a way to have some of the missed shots from that burst hit other targets in the area.
2. more or fewer shots hitting larger or smaller targets
3. how a burst shot works against a Squad


my friend, let me answer these one by one:

1. Any minifig within 1" of the target must make a skill check to see if they've been hit by a stray bullet. this skill would be inversely proportional to the amount of shots that hit the target, so i'd say they must roll above 1d6-success grade. if that is failed, that minifig takes the amount of damage that would be dealt from a single shot. to put it into an example: after Rambrik the mighty shot the nameless yellow minifig, he noticed his girlfriend was standing to the side, about an inch away. she rolls to see if she's been hit, and rolls a 4 for herself, vs. a 6 (+3 for critical dice_ rolled on the damage. 9 - 4 is 5, which is above girlfriend's skill roll. she takes 1dg damage from the gun.

2. well this is self explanitory. the success grade is based off of skill. a larger target gives skill bonuses, which leads to larger success grade, in turn being more damage.

3. vs. a squad, i'd just say divide up the damage just like any other damage vs. a squad.
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Postby Sir Billingsly » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:53 am

Hello again,
for fiering at multiple Oponent's I use the following Rule.

And the usual Suggestons first :roll: :
1) Automatic guns as a MG are designed to hit masses of Oponents in an area.
2) So when you use an Automatic weapon for this you don't aim at all, you just fire into the right direction.

Okay, taking this into account, we see that it is a question of pure Luck (and Size of course) if a Target in the fiering arc is hit.

The Chance to be hit, depends on two factors, the size of the Gun used,(a Size 1 Minifig Weapon in the Example) and the size of the possible targets, ten Size 1 Minifigs.

Let's return to Rambrick for another Example:

After killing the pacifistic Monk of the Village last Turn, Rambrick is now confronted with a bunch of Sabre wielding litlle yellow men.....

He puts another Clip of ammo into his gun and fires into the Crowd.

He Rolls one d6 for every possible Target in his fiering arc, including everything that might be damaged by it. If the die shows a 5 or 6 the target is hit and takes normal Weapon Damage.

When the Target is of different Size. Maybe a Size 4 Tree in the Example. the chance to be hit is bigger, in this case by 3 Pts. So it is hit on a 2-6.
If the monks holy Rat takes part in the Assault, it would be Size 0 and only be hit on a 6.

You asked for collateral Damage when fiering an aimed Burst. Well use this Rules, everything nearby, 1'' of the Target sounds just fine, takes a hit on 5-6.


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Postby IVhorseman » Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:01 pm

you know, this is a lot like my current auto-fire rules.

Actually, it's exactly the same, but with different values. Remember those rules mike and i are pushing with the fingers? it's basically that, depending on the size of the arc. a minifig pumping the same amount of bullets over a larger area has a less dense cloud of bullets.
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Postby Sir Billingsly » Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:16 pm

Hi,

Sry, I didn't read your rules, but it is good to see, that we think in similar ways.

What i don't get is the idea of your fiering Arc Problem.
You should give it a second thought, 'cause it is also true that the more Targets are in the proposed Area the more likely it is that some of them get hit.
I use a fixed Fiering arc of 90 ° wich may not be realistic but helps to keep Discussions low and the Game in Balance.
By doing this, i give the User the Opportunity to cover a large Piece of Ground but i also give him the Problem that it can be difficult to keep his own Units out of the fiering Arc.
So what i don't see is why this Zone of fire thing needs a Skill Roll at all.
I say less and simpler Rule's give a Game speed and through that fun.

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Postby IVhorseman » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:51 pm

but who's going to bust out a protractor for exactly 90 degrees? the finger rule lends itself pretty well, and has been playtested with good results. and since you roll for each unit inside the arc, the chances that SOMETHING gets hit goes up drastically.

and the reason i give a skill modifier for the firing arc is because when you're spraying the dirt with machinegun fire, the chances you actually hit something important goes down with the wider angle you're using, while the chances of hitting something ELSE go up. in fact, the biggest reason you're spraying an area is for suppresion fire more than actually hitting things (something i'm planning on incorperating later on).
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Postby Gladius » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:25 pm

Okay, so what do we need to get out of a good Auto-fire rule?

-where extra bullets go (into the intestines of a target or into a nearby tree?)
-how to distribute damage in a squad (It might work just to treat them as separate targets after we negotiate the first bullet point)
-hitting larger/smaller targets
-how to deal with spread-fire
-any modifications to the weapon

anything else?
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Postby Sir Billingsly » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:48 pm

Hi,

The Squad Problem: I would do it this way, (using the 1'' Rule).
One Squadmember chosen by the defending player get's the full Damage, and all Member's that are near (inside a 1'' Area), have a chance to be hit too, but with normal weapon damage. (it is not smart to stay too close together when someone shoots an automatic weapon at you).
The Attackmodifier for size should not be taken into account since
Squad 's are meant to give the Infantry some additional Protection.

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Postby IVhorseman » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:04 pm

Gladius wrote:Okay, so what do we need to get out of a good Auto-fire rule?

-where extra bullets go (into the intestines of a target or into a nearby tree?)
-how to distribute damage in a squad (It might work just to treat them as separate targets after we negotiate the first bullet point)
-hitting larger/smaller targets
-how to deal with spread-fire
-any modifications to the weapon

anything else?


honestly, i think that's about it. and they're basically all answered so far:

-extra bullets that do not hit the target have a chance of hitting anything within 1" of the target. the target must roll a skill high enough to avoid taking damage (i say 1d6 - success grade. if more bullets hit the target, then less bullets hit other things). if the target is hit, it takes normal weapon damage. inanimate objects within 1" of the target (trees, rocks, orphanages) will always take a stray bullet.

-squads i'd say just treat it as normal damage from a single attack. since success grade is based off of skill, then the larger the target, the more damage done (i'm debating whether or not to go into negative skill for the purposes of success grades. possibly yes for massive damage, and possibly no to take into account that a gun can only shoot so many bullets.)

-smaller/larger targets also lend themselves to success grade. remember, Success grade is based off of skill. skill changes versus larger or smaller targets, and thus so does success grade.

-spread fire i think we've got covered. there's the finger rule that i don't want to explain again, and you just roll for every target inside this cone.

-modifications? what kind of modifications? basically, any modification made on ANY weapon would show itself present in an automatic weapon. as an example, you make a gun that does 2d6 damage, then when it makes a fully automatic burst on a minifig, it will do 2d6 + success grade damage. 2d6+3 becomes 2d6 + SG +3.
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Postby Gladius » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:25 pm

I just meant that we need to sum up those things into one easy post, which you almost did :)

And about the 1" "accidental target" thing- how do you determine the skill roll necessary to dodge the bullets?
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Postby Foggy » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:30 pm

Foggy's simple take on Automatic Fire.

1)The weapon needs a huge magazine in order to be Auto.

2)Every "shot" is considered to be a burst of rounds.

3)You want another shot? Add another UR point. Up to maximum Skill. Must state how many shots before rolling and must shoot as many destructable things.
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Postby IVhorseman » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:46 am

Gladius wrote:I just meant that we need to sum up those things into one easy post, which you almost did :)

And about the 1" "accidental target" thing- how do you determine the skill roll necessary to dodge the bullets?


1d6 - success grade, just like i said in the previous post. minifig must roll skill higher than this number to dodge the bullet (literally!).
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Postby Sir Billingsly » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:30 am

Hello,

@IVHorsemen: when I give a Weapon larger then a Minifigs Handweapon Automatic Fire Special, it gets a damage bonus(db) = successgrade(sg) * Size of Weapon. It seems a bit ridiculous that a 3d6 Damage Autogun only gets a +1 db when fiering a Burst.

It seems a good Idea to colect all the information and make a rule for Autofire in one Post.


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Postby Gladius » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:51 pm

I didn't mean what you roll... I meant to ask what you need TO roll to dodge the bullet. What is the difficulty rating?
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Postby IVhorseman » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:38 pm

Sir Billingsly wrote:Hello,

@IVHorsemen: when I give a Weapon larger then a Minifigs Handweapon Automatic Fire Special, it gets a damage bonus(db) = successgrade(sg) * Size of Weapon. It seems a bit ridiculous that a 3d6 Damage Autogun only gets a +1 db when fiering a Burst.

It seems a good Idea to colect all the information and make a rule for Autofire in one Post.


Greetings Billingsly


strongly agreed.

and to Gladius, yeah, that IS the difficulty rating. the difficulty rating is 1d6 - success grade of the shot. if i had a success grade of let's say 4, and a minifig was within 1" of the target, then that minifig would have to roll above (1d6-4) in skill. the skill required varies depending on both dumb luck and the number of bullets hit.
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Postby Sir Billingsly » Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:38 am

Hi Horseman,

that's too many rolls for my taste.
That would be one roll for hitting the target, one roll for each Minifig in 1'' to determine the dodging difficulty and then one more roll for each minifig that is in 1'' for dodging.

let's leave out the last roll, and say, if the result from d6-succesgrade is positive the minifig takes a hit and is damaged.

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