FlakGun

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FlakGun

Postby Battlegrinder » Sat May 03, 2014 6:20 pm

A FlakGun is basically a combination of a normal gun and a blast gun (I suppose you could build one with a blastgun and a machinegun, but that would get too complicated). Its cost is based on how much of each gun you buy, from a minimum of a size 2 1:1 flakgun (you cannot build a size 1 flakgun). The 1:1 represents the ratio of standard gun to blastgun range/damage.

For a 1:1 flakgun, it would have a net range of 10 inches. For the first 6 inches, it does gun damage, but after that, the shot breaks apart (like a round from a flak cannon) and takes on the damage and firing arc of a blast gun. You can build a flakgun with any ration of gun to burst gun range (for example, a 2:1 flax gun would have a gun range of 10, while a 1:2 flak gun would have a 6 inch gun range and then a 6 inch blast range).

I'd appreciate any suggestions you have about this, as I've got the feeling that no matter how cool of weapon it might be, the flakgun could have some balance issue.
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Re: FlakGun

Postby Brikguy0410 » Sun May 04, 2014 8:30 am

I'm pretty sure a flak gun means an anti air quad turret
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Re: FlakGun

Postby Battlegrinder » Sun May 04, 2014 11:27 am

Brikguy0410 wrote:I'm pretty sure a flak gun means an anti air quad turret


Technically not. Flak is a generic term for anti-aircraft fire, as well as the explosive shells they fired. I was using the term as the 2nd meaning, to convey the idea of the shot bursting at a given point and spraying the area in front of it with shrapnel.

Also, most quad turrets where based around machine guns, while flak cannons where usually single turrets. This was primarily because flak cannons where much larger and heavier than machineguns (the famous 88mm gun was large enough to take on tanks, and would later be used as the main weapon of late war German armor), and fired at a high angle, while machineguns where used for close in defense. The German flak 38, one of the few quadmounted flak guns, had a range of only 2 Km at best, which was only enough to counter low flying aircraft.
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Re: FlakGun

Postby Brikguy0410 » Sun May 04, 2014 11:31 am

Battlegrinder wrote:
Brikguy0410 wrote:I'm pretty sure a flak gun means an anti air quad turret


Technically not. Flak is a generic term for anti-aircraft fire, as well as the explosive shells they fired. I was using the term as the 2nd meaning, to convey the idea of the shot bursting at a given point and spraying the area in front of it with shrapnel.

Also, most quad turrets where based around machine guns, while flak cannons where usually single turrets. This was primarily because flak cannons where much larger and heavier than machineguns (the famous 88mm gun was large enough to take on tanks, and would later be used as the main weapon of late war German armor), and fired at a high angle, while machineguns where used for close in defense. The German flak 38, one of the few quadmounted flak guns, had a range of only 2 Km at best, which was only enough to counter low flying aircraft.

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Re: FlakGun

Postby IVhorseman » Sun May 04, 2014 12:19 pm

I've always treated flak guns like regular explosive weapons, but with one major difference: any missed shots will still explode in the air a number of inches away equal to the amount missed by. So, when shooting a missile at a jet, missing the roll by one two or five hardly matters at all - the missile still missed. With a flak cannon, the round will still explode in the air, near enough to still cause damage.

Frankly, I don't know enough about how flak shells actually work to know if this solution is a good fit, but it sure is simpler. Most of what I know about flak comes from Unreal Tournament, where the flak cannon was this weird combination spreadgun/grenade launcher that launched bits of white-hot metal at enemies.
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Re: FlakGun

Postby Coriolanus » Sun May 04, 2014 12:29 pm

In my opinion, IV Horseman's solution (launcher w/ missed shots exploding in the air instead of when they hit something) is simpler and actually more realistic, especially for larger caliber AA guns. For weapons representing 20mm and smaller AA guns, I would just classify them as autoguns. Or (and this would make the most sense for something like a 40mm Bofors) combine the two and have an auto-launcher w/ missed shots exploding in air.
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Re: FlakGun

Postby Battlegrinder » Sun May 04, 2014 2:23 pm

IVhorseman wrote:I've always treated flak guns like regular explosive weapons, but with one major difference: any missed shots will still explode in the air a number of inches away equal to the amount missed by. So, when shooting a missile at a jet, missing the roll by one two or five hardly matters at all - the missile still missed. With a flak cannon, the round will still explode in the air, near enough to still cause damage.

Frankly, I don't know enough about how flak shells actually work to know if this solution is a good fit, but it sure is simpler. Most of what I know about flak comes from Unreal Tournament, where the flak cannon was this weird combination spreadgun/grenade launcher that launched bits of white-hot metal at enemies.


I considered that, but I already have the "proximity fuse" rule for missiles that works in a very similar way, so stating a flak gun that way seemed unnecessary. It also doesn't really fit with the concept for the vehicle I was planning to mount these on, which is already going to have some large missile pods on it.

Also, you're guess about how flak works is more or less dead on like Bonn-o-Tron. Most of the time, it will use a timed fuse or something so it explodes a certain time/distance after leaving the gun, though most will also include a proximity detonator so it can engage aircraft that are closer than that.
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Re: FlakGun

Postby IVhorseman » Mon May 05, 2014 2:01 am

If that's the case, why not recycle your proximity fuse rule?
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Re: FlakGun

Postby Gungnir » Mon May 05, 2014 5:12 am

I track deviation for explosives regardless, so I'd just make it a regular exploding weapon. But using them as a combination cannon/blast gun could work too.
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Re: FlakGun

Postby Battlegrinder » Mon May 05, 2014 9:26 am

IVhorseman wrote:If that's the case, why not recycle your proximity fuse rule?


Mostly because I really liked the idea of this combination weapon, it adds a layer of tactical flexibility that regular weapons lack, since with a flak gun you can switch between anti-vehicle and anti-infantry damage by just shifting the shooter a few inches in one direction or the other.
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Re: FlakGun

Postby stubby » Mon May 05, 2014 12:40 pm

Actually I think Battlegrindr's original idea works pretty good. It's the way I'd probably do it.

Also that grindr typo was an accident but still funny.
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Re: FlakGun

Postby Battlegrinder » Mon May 05, 2014 1:05 pm

stubby wrote:Actually I think Battlegrindr's original idea works pretty good. It's the way I'd probably do it.

Also that grindr typo was an accident but still funny.


Glad you approve of the design.

I've belated realized that flak guns will actually suck at engaging aircraft, because the actual "flak" part does basically no damage. I might tweak the stats a bit so the flak burst does a bit more damage, so you can actually use it to shoot at vehicles and whatnot. Maybe let it use the damage roll (but not range) of the whole gun. Gonna have to do some test battles to see how it works.
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Re: FlakGun

Postby IVhorseman » Mon May 05, 2014 1:53 pm

I'm not saying that it wouldn't work good, I'm really just more inclined towards using a simpler existing solution where one exists than I am to try to make something entirely new.

As an example, this sounds like combining multiple gun types into one large siege weapon. I've done this before with cannons, where I would take a size 6 tank cannon for example, and purchase 4" worth of gun for it and 2" worth of launcher, and then just adding up the UR, range and damage associated with both. It seemed like an okay solution, but in actual practice it rarely seemed more effective than just getting a size 6 gun and leaving all the explodey bits to grenades and artillery fire and such. That's still an idea I flip flop over whether or not it's more trouble than it's worth.
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Re: FlakGun

Postby marjhunaz » Fri May 09, 2014 3:25 am

The 12.8 cm FlaK 40 was a German World War II anti-aircraft gun. that is a great battle weapons on world war II.
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Re: FlakGun

Postby motorhead fan » Fri May 09, 2014 9:09 am

this sounds like some of the guns from earth defense force insect armageddon, I am gonna try this.
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