Custom designed minifig

[IVhorseman]

JJ, there already IS something like that. check the stats for the scout card.

also, according to what we've got here, snipers already have about a 30" range of fire by themselves. they don't need someone to help them spot as much as helping them aim (and since sniping is 1d2, it's not going to help much to increase that).

and the sniper already more or less IS game-changing as he is. adding more to his stats would make it far too confusing (generally if you have more text than can fit on the back of the card in a reasonable size, then it's too much). The only thing i would change is how a sniper's cover works: if a sniper spends a move completely still, then he is considered in full cover and is considered invisible. when a sniper fires, he is briefly revealed and loses his bonus cover. however, this period only lasts long enough for the enemy to shoot as a response action (see the rules, chapter 4.3). once the next person's turn starts, the sniper goes back to being in full cover and invisible.

what's funny, is this is basically how the snipers in company of heroes (an RTS) work. they're invisible until they fire, and insta-kill individual members of squads. unfortunately, they're terrible at close-combat.

[Almighty Benny]

Snipers are great. They pose a threat on a battlefield unlike any other in that they make the enemy constantly alert and afraid. They do incredible amounts of damage and can vanish in a flash. You can give them all the weaknesses you want so that they don't become a super-unit, but in the end, they just aren't Brikwars.

Picture modern warfare as you know it from movies and television. Soldiers are constantly ducking behind cover and moving strategically to avoid the threat of being inside a sniper's range. Now this seems extremely game-changing, but not in a good way.

Just look at what 4 was talking about. A unit that is invisible, appears only to mutilate a target 30 inches away, and then vanishes. Brikwars is about chaos, not calculated maneuvers and tactics. The sniper element would be so damaging that it would eliminate the fun of picking ninjas and scouts and the like, because none of them would stand a chance against a unit that cannot be attacked without being so close that it would have already killed you 3 times.

I'm not saying that Brikwars doesn't have a place for snipers, and I'm not saying I know what I'm talking about, but what I am saying is that Mike has established a certain spirit to this game and that the game-change presented by the current versions just doesn't fit in. If you really want to see this particular unit added to the Brikwars universe, begin changing it in a way that fits in with the likes of the Heroes, ninjas, and Rascus the Agiles.

I can't say that I know for sure what is keeping the sniper out of Mike's scope of interest, but I can at least try to promote alternatives. I'll get to thinking about this tomorrow.

[IVhorseman]

crap... i forget to mention that sniper rifles are always assumed to be slow weapons: it takes a minifig a full action to look into the scope and pick a target, and a seperate action to fire and i guess reload.

and i ALSO completely forgot to say that should a sniper miss his target, it should be completely free, non-penalized shots for the enemy to take potshots at the sniper. regardless, i see what you mean.

also, you get bonus points for the pun.

[Rayhawk]

I'm not saying that Brikwars doesn't have a place for snipers, and I'm not saying I know what I'm talking about, but what I am saying is that Mike has established a certain spirit to this game and that the game-change presented by the current versions just doesn't fit in. If you really want to see this particular unit added to the Brikwars universe, begin changing it in a way that fits in with the likes of the Heroes, ninjas, and Rascus the Agiles.

I hadn't actually thought it out to quite this degree just yet, but that's a pretty good summary. Basically, unless a new unit or rule does something to specifically add a new kind of fun to the game, in a way that players won't already be doing anyway by jiggling numbers around on existing units, then it's a waste of bandwidth. Posting something to get your post count up just ruins everyone else's enjoyment because you show that you don't care at all about wasting their time.

Wait, I mistyped that. What I meant was, adding material to the rulebook just to have more material in the rulebook just brings down the overall quality. So basically I'm just waiting for a Sniper idea that'll make me say "All right! If we put those guys in the game, then THAT will be FUN."

[Houndis]

Benny has a point. Snipers aren't exactly what I imagine the soul of BrikWars. They are cool and increase mayhem and blood-shed, but they can be too powerful, if you're not careful.

IVhorse, do you mean that snipers would get one shot in three turns? Wow, that's IS slow. But yeah, it would definitely decrease their invincibility. I'd say 2 turns per shot, shoot and reload, but it's just me wanting to get Minifigs killed

And I suppose it's because English isn't my native language, but I didn't understand your "potshot" thing. So, if sniper misses his/her shot, every enemy gets to know where he is, and can try to shoot there? And what is "potshot" anyway?

Well, because this has been transmorfed into Sniper-thread, I'll just put this here. We have our own type of Sniper and rifle, and I thought of making my sniper a Hero in the next game. Basically he's Sniper with Ego, or Hero with Sniper rifle. I haven't decided yet. But the enemy will have one too, and now I'm thinking the Clichés. My sniper will be Simo Häyhä (you know, the most effective sniper in the World, killed over 500 Russians in 3,5 months) and the enemy would be Vasily Zaytsev, who was Russian sniper in the WWII. What differences should these two Clichés have? Me and my brother thought that only difference would be: Häyhä can shoot farther and Zaytsev can shoot two targets at once. What do you think?

[IVhorseman]

the difference is that Zaytsev must consume liquor upon sight and that Hayha is EXTREMELY obnoxious and a braggart.

and by slow, i meant 2 turns. one turn aim, one turn shoot. also, "potshot" more or less means "cheap shots".

ok, but i think if we really want to introduce a sniper as being fun, we need to start over from scratch, and get a basic concept of what a sniper should do. concept first, THEN rules.

ok, so in theory, a balanced sniper is meant to be able to get into a good position and take out a specific target. after this, it's a free-for all as to how many more shots he can pop off before running away or getting killed. Snipers would need a little time to set up each shot. but once that time is set, it's BOOM, HEADSHOT time! however, snipers should be vulnerable to close combat (i think sniper ego takes care of that), and ESPECIALLY vulnerable to ninjas.

good inspiration for how a sniper should work could also come from Team Fortress 2 (and basically every character class you think of. TF2 did a really good job here), and company of heroes managed a good way for snipers to be effective yet vulnerable (invisible unless firing, but EXTREMELY slow while cloaked, and even lower max health. again, only good for taking out small squads and then running to the hills).

[Houndis]

the difference is that Zaytsev must consume liquor upon sight and that Hayha is EXTREMELY obnoxious and a braggart.

I can undestand the liquor thing, but you seem to be unaware that Häyhä was nice and silent man, who didn't boast. Or do you just hate Finnish?

For the sniper thing, TF2 would be the best to look at. And I say that everything should be taken from there
He's supposed to be lightly equipped and be talented shooter. So he's armor is weak and he has some extra Ranged Combat Skill. He's dead when somebody really hits him. And maybe some Skill Decrease to CC? So he sucks at CC, rocks at Ranged Combat and is killed easily. That would sound about right.

[IVhorseman]

well not even something as complex as CC decrease. by close combat being bad for snipers, i mean anyone who gets within a certain range (6" perhaps) suddenly decreases all of his stats until somebody's dead.

and i still really like the 1d2 method of sniping. snipers generally don't hit targets unless it's a fatal shot, which really encompasses the character of who a sniper is.

MOVEMENT: the whole issue with how fast a sniper should be gives good arguments on both sides, so i say we just call it 5" and forget it.

armor: again, should be weak. a sniper spends time looking for heavy cover and high places, pops a shot off, and then either runs like hell, or dies.

CP: is for little girls. i hate using it, and therefore refuse to acknowledge it's existance.

Skill: just regular old 1d6 is perfect, other than his 1d2 at sniping. snipers are smart enough not to take a skill penalty here, but let's not call em geniuses.

ABILITY: this is where we need to be careful with this. we don't want anything too deadly OR too wimpy. and anything requiring placing pips next to figs is right out. the only thing for sure a sniper would need is his 1d2 sniper ability. after this, i'm completely lost as to what we'd do after that to make the sniper even more fun. ideas i've been tossing around are things like sunlight glinting off of the scope revealing a sniper, or something to do with invisibility or bonus cover, but absolutely NOTHING involvind a die roll.

[DarkWolf]

So basically we're right back where we started, with IV's original trimming. Huh. And here I thought something new might come to the table. Limited movement, uber attack, low armor, get's ticked if anyone get's near him. That about covers it. And the lowered attack speed is also a good idea. But instead of one turn to aim, how about we say it's to reload the rifle, as sniper rifles are single shot (show me one fully automatic sniper rifle that can still hit it's target dead on, I dare ya!) so it's needed to cycle the bolt, or whatever. It makes it more badassed than taking a turn to aim.

[Master JJ]

JJ, there already IS something like that. check the stats for the scout card.

also, according to what we've got here, snipers already have about a 30" range of fire by themselves. they don't need someone to help them spot as much as helping them aim (and since sniping is 1d2, it's not going to help much to increase that).

*cough* I really need to read the core rules sometime, i've just skimmed them once or twice. Last time I acually read them was almost a year ago. So I have some catching up to do.

And sorry, I was thinking how my friends and I play, with a sniper having 15" of range.

CP: is for little girls. i hate using it, and therefore refuse to acknowledge it's existance.

I agree with you, though it can be useful if you want to do a small battle.

Hmmm..yeah, I think the one turn to reload helps. But we STILL need a game changing element. And right now, I can't seem to think of one. Im going to keep trying though, sooner or later one of us has to come up with something good, right?

[Houndis]

So basically we're right back where we started, with IV's original trimming. Huh. And here I thought something new might come to the table. Limited movement, uber attack, low armor, get's ticked if anyone get's near him. That about covers it. And the lowered attack speed is also a good idea. But instead of one turn to aim, how about we say it's to reload the rifle, as sniper rifles are single shot (show me one fully automatic sniper rifle that can still hit it's target dead on, I dare ya!) so it's needed to cycle the bolt, or whatever. It makes it more badassed than taking a turn to aim.

Yep, that's the exact reason why I voted for shoot-reload turns few posts earlier. And don't snipers usually pick their target while they reload? So they shoot, pick target and reload, aim and shoot, et cetera.

Horse, you'll just have to live with CPs, because so many use it, and if this ever gets to a stat card, it will include cost. You may hate using it, but don't even think that CP-users are somewhat more stupid or something. And for the Movement, I still say it should definitely be UNDER 5". Snipers aren't the running type of soldiers. They pick their spot, shoot few rounds and move on to a nearby sniping spot. Why on Earth should they be as fast as normal troops?

One more question: why range of 30"? It's 2,5 times the range of normal rifle and (in our games) covers almost the whole warzone. With two snipers in good places, none is able to kill them (except maybe a invisible spy, but he's slow and is spotted by scouts) unless he has great luck with Heroic Feat and has just the right cliché.

[IVhorseman]

definitely 30" range. sure, it's a bit much, but snipers are vulnerable to:

*counter-sniping

*vehicles

*close combat (within 10")

now i'll admit, i personally use rifles that have longer ranges than yours, but that's not the particularly hard part of hunting down a sniper. heroes (who have heroic armor somewhat protecting them from snipers) can use a feat to bring em down, someone with a rocket can blow down the entire church tower that they're in, a tank can roll over the sniper, and a group of infantry can make a charge on the sniper's position (sure he'll take one or two down, but once they're within 10" he's dead). i'll admit that you should NOT use snipers in games smaller than 5 or 6 minifigs per side, and that you shouldn't have more than one, MAYBE two snipers per side, but other than that they seem about fine to me.

and who said anything about CP users being stupid? go ahead and use it, and it's probably a show of even MORE intelligence to use it, but i personally just throw units on a battlefield until it looks more or less balanced.

and as for sniper movement, i think i may agree with you there. there's people out there who say they should be extremely fast since they're so lightly armored, but i'd say that for balance reasons they move at around 3" per turn.

[King of Brix]

I don't like CP either. Also, how about we settle for 4" movement? 3 inches would usually leave them vulnerable to attack, wouldn't it? Also, where do you get all of these different kinds of dice I have a handful of d6s and thats it. Where to get: d10s, d20s, etc.

[Blitzen]

I agree with 4" of movement. Even with those drawbacks, if the sniper's opponent has no way of fighting back they could be incredibly dominated. Imagine putting him in a tower with a horde of grenades, and breaking the staircase. That would dominate over the whole map unless the opponent hides forever and the battle ends in a Sniper-induced stalemate. He could bring out another Sniper of course, but this one would have a better position and it would prove my point anyway.
My god, I should try that.

As for the dice,

you'll have to do some shopping at your local gaming store or website to stock up.

[DarkWolf]

I don't like CP either. Also, how about we settle for 4" movement? 3 inches would usually leave them vulnerable to attack, wouldn't it? Also, where do you get all of these different kinds of dice I have a handful of d6s and thats it. Where to get: d10s, d20s, etc.

d20's are real, I've got a couple from the Star Wars Miniatures sets, but d10's are completely made up. It's actually 2d6-2. That's in the Core Rules somewhere, I think. Been a while since I checked. The only thing I did check recently was Collision Damage about halfway into a solo skirmish I played last night (Once the stupid thing is written up, you'll love the opening bloodshed)