A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by the R

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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby 501stCadians » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:47 am

"Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius."-Arnaud Amalric

Problem solved.
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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby Keldoclock » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:49 am

You know, I just realized, when political discussions happen, I just parrot Stubby's talking points. Goddamn it.
As far as consumerism, a certain exchange comes to mind, from yesterday:

My good friend Jeffery spoke thusly; "Conforming to nonconformism is so stupid."

How do we know when we are making our own decisions and when we are conforming to external forces? I postulate that we do not know, and in fact cannot know, and that our very personalities are also malleable things, that will change under external pressures, much like the ones all of us face daily.

Thus: Any assessment made of ANY situation, will decay in accuracy with time (it may have been considerably inaccurate to begin with, but it will still decay), and thusly any actions taken based on any assessment must be made with as much haste as possible so as to not render said assessment useless.

The obvious next question, then, is "what of this assessment, Keldoclock?"

I say to you that this assessment of the thread (and of the world at large) is also sure to soon be invalid and that it is probably still in your best interests to make up your mind about this post and this thread and then do something about it, or choose to not do anything about it, which is still doing something.


EDIT: Living proof! while I was typing there was another post!
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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby Arkbrik » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:11 am

501stCadians wrote:"Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius."-Arnaud Amalric

Problem solved.

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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby Tzan » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:03 pm

Keldoclock wrote:How do we know when we are making our own decisions and when we are conforming to external feces? I postulate that we do not know, and in fact cannot know, and that our very personalities are also malleable things, that will change under external pressures, much like the ones all of us face daily.


I have found that my speech pattern varied quite a bit depending on who I am hanging around with.

For example:
I never used the word awesome before working with a bunch of twenty somethings at Turbine, I was 43.

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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby Natalya » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:15 pm

Arkbrik wrote:-The consumer lifestyle is a result of the capitalist system, as the economy must constantly grow, when basic needs are fulfilled new ones must be invented or the economy will crash


No. You don't need constant growth. That is an illusion.

IX_Legion wrote:I agree with most of what you say on education. Some of the teachers try to make kids actually learn, rather than memorize. But you know what killed that? Standardized tests. I don't know about anyone else, but VA's SOLs "teach" you to memorize a fact, spit it back out word for freaking word, and then forget it to make room for next year's memorization.


Word.


IX_Legion wrote:Political correctness makes me sick too. It seems some want our education system to make kids "feel good" about themselves rather than actually knowing anything. Now, I don't mean if you don't get a concept we should call you an idiot and ignore you (and no, by "you" I don't mean any of the oversensitive people who seem to get offended by everything on this thread), but if you are doing something wrong THEN ITS WRONG! It ends up that kids think they can do whatever and they'll just be patted on the back no matter how bad it is. The real world doesn't work that way.


You might be going too far. Positive encouragement isn't the same as molly-coddling someone and being all like "oh you did terrific" when they totally fucked something up. You don't have to be an asshole to let someone know they can//should//need to do better. Being a jerk about it is a great way to make someone not want to do whatever the fuck they were doing and resent the whole activity, and probably has something to do with why many kids hate school and hate being forced to 'learn' which is again in quotes because memorizing shit isn't learning.

IX_Legion wrote:As far as politics, things have gone way downhill. Representatives were supposed to be in touch with their constituents, seeing what they thought on issues, etc.


I want to, but I haven't even begun to get there.


Ross_Varn wrote:
IX_Legion wrote:Also, this is the last forum I expected to find a serious discussion like this on like Bonn-o-Tron.


We've been practicing. http://www.brikwars.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=18


That's the N00b Forum.


Whiteagle wrote:Seriously though Stubby, what is your suggested solution to this problem?
You can gnash and whine and bitch and moan all day about the lobbyist owning Washington, but in the end your still not doing anything.



And so, we arrive at a discussion of options. If we can all agree (not sure that's possible given this crowd lol) on some desired outcomes, we can start to craft solutions. I started this whole thread talking about how our education system is fucked and for the most part produces a crowd of disinterested people who don't really understand what's going on like Bonn-o-Tron. I know I was there when I graduated high school. I didn't understand what college was, I didn't know anything about why our political system was (and still is now) full of gridlock, but most of all I didn't appreciate that I myself didn't know any of these things. I had no intellectual framework for comprehending the economic and political issues in our culture. All I had was the right-or-wrong black-or-white binary mentality that our culture and our schools put into my brain. Using that crude logic system to understand a world of greys doesn't go anywhere fast.

Back on course though, if we can agree that schools ought to (among other things) provide an intellectual framework for understanding the world that isn't just the black/white good/evil binary thought mentality then obviously a solution here is to reform how they work. But first, how do they work?

If you went to public school like me, and it was anything like the one I went to, the first thing that happens is you go to your classroom, you sit in a desk or at a table, and the desks or tables are usually set up in rows facing the teacher at the front of the classroom. The front isn't where the door or window is, but is noted by the presence of the chalkboard and possibly a podium for the teacher's notes. What does this remind you of? Think about it for a second... Where else is this exact same format used?

Church

Public school is set-up to mimic church. This probably has something to do with the history of how education was developed in this country, and a very similar history for Canadian education I might add, but the point is there are students and there is a teacher and the teacher is the one with all the answers and the students must absolutely submit to that teacher or they get all sorts of punishments such as detention or suspension. I never went to church growing up, but it's pretty obvious that the student/teacher hierarchy established at a school is the exact same as the preacher/congregation hierarchy, except usually the kids are allowed to ask questions in the middle of something.

More in a bit...
Last edited by Natalya on Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby Natalya » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:17 pm

Keldoclock wrote:My good friend Jeffery spoke thusly; "Conforming to nonconformism is so stupid."

How do we know when we are making our own decisions and when we are conforming to external feces? I postulate that we do not know, and in fact cannot know, and that our very personalities are also malleable things, that will change under external pressures, much like the ones all of us face daily.


Try examining the value system we have that suggests that conforming is for tools and nonconforming is for cool people who buy iProducts. What is inherently good about one or the other? We exalt the non-conformist, but what if the non-conformist is an idiot? What if they don't want to wear a seat-belt?

Is that really so smart?

This shit needs to be broken down on a case-by-case basis for any real sense to be made about whether or not conforming is a good idea in any given situation.



Keldoclock wrote:You know, I just realized, when political discussions happen, I just parrot Stubby's talking points. Goddamn it.


Not surprising. Rayhawk is good at pitching stuff, and does it with a witty-sarcastic manner that makes it sound really good. But he's also not an idiot which is why I tend to agree with him on many things as well.


Keldoclock wrote:How do we know when we are making our own decisions and when we are conforming to external feces? I postulate that we do not know, and in fact cannot know, and that our very personalities are also malleable things, that will change under external pressures, much like the ones all of us face daily.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum

That you chose to do something indicates a presence of some free will even if you're doing what others have done before.
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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby Whiteagle » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:33 pm

Natalya wrote:
Whiteagle wrote:Seriously though Stubby, what is your suggested solution to this problem?
You can gnash and whine and bitch and moan all day about the lobbyist owning Washington, but in the end your still not doing anything.


And so, we arrive at a discussion of options. If we can all agree (not sure that's possible given this crowd lol) on some desired outcomes, we can start to craft solutions. I started this whole thread talking about how our education system is fucked and for the most part produces a crowd of disinterested people who don't really understand what's going on like Bonn-o-Tron. I know I was there when I graduated high school. I didn't understand what college was, I didn't know anything about why our political system was (and still is now) full of gridlock, but most of all I didn't appreciate that I myself didn't know any of these things. I had no intellectual framework for comprehending the economic and political issues in our culture. All I had was the right-or-wrong black-or-white binary mentality that our culture and our schools put into my brain. Using that crude logic system to understand a world of greys doesn't go anywhere fast.

Back on course though, if we can agree that schools ought to (among other things) provide an intellectual framework for understanding the world that isn't just the black/white good/evil binary thought mentality then obviously a solution here is to reform how they work. But first, how do they work?

Uh... I don't know about your school Natalya, but mine DID provide such a framework.
Hell, I think one the best ways to avoid classwork with one of our social studies teachers WAS to get him debating with you on a current issue.
And yes, this was a public school.
So unless schools in Iowa are just plain better then everywhere else (something I wouldn't mind), I have a feeling your falling prey to a generalization fallacy.

Natalya wrote:If you went to public school like me, and it was anything like the one I went to, the first thing that happens is you go to your classroom, you sit in a desk or at a table, and the desks or tables are usually set up in rows facing the teacher at the front of the classroom. The front isn't where the door or window is, but is noted by the presence of the chalkboard and possibly a podium for the teacher's notes. What does this remind you of? Think about it for a second... Where else is this exact same format used?

Church

Public school is set-up to mimic church. This probably has something to do with the history of how education was developed in this country, and a very similar history for Canadian education I might add, but the point is there are students and there is a teacher and the teacher is the one with all the answers and the students must absolutely submit to that teacher or they get all sorts of punishments such as detention or suspension. I never went to church growing up, but it's pretty obvious that the student/teacher hierarchy established at a school is the exact same as the preacher/congregation hierarchy, except usually the kids are allowed to ask questions in the middle of something.

More in a bit...

Funny, I thought they were both set up that way because it's the most effective means for a single speaker to address a large group of people.

Also, would a similarity between Religious teaching and Academic teaching a bad thing?
Unless you are implying that religion equals brainwashing, in which case I'm a bit offended...
My late priest was an educator as well as a preacher, trying to get his congregation to actually THINK about the teaching of the good book.
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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby Ross_Varn » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:37 pm

The public school system is inherently flawed. *shrugs* Religion is built around belief, which is a value that someone believes in. If somebody else is telling them about that believe, it's not a matter of brainwashing, it's just them listening to what they want to hear. But churches were made, once upon a time, to preach the Good Word to the unbelievers, and history and the ancient values of those churches are maintained by a lot of churches in the US today.
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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby Natalya » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:28 pm

Dude that stuff in the bible probably never even happened. It was written like 70 years after the fact. In a totally different languange.
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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby Whiteagle » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:31 pm

Natalya wrote:Dude that stuff in the bible probably never even happened. It was written like 70 years after the fact. In a totally different languange.

*Facepalm...*
Natalya... that isn't the point!
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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby Keldoclock » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:30 pm

Natalya, you have succumbed to the debate and now in an attempt to save face you are talking out of your ass.
Stop it. 'S embarrassing.
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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby Scottsman » Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:43 pm

After reading all this, I have come to the conclusion that I am incapable of telling when you guys are trolling and when you are serious, and I doubt you can tell either. I think I'm going to stay out of this mess unless someone asks me for an opinion directly.
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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby Ross_Varn » Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:19 am

Scottsman wrote:After reading all this, I have come to the conclusion that I am incapable of telling when you guys are trolling and when you are serious, and I doubt you can tell either.


I think he gets it.
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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby Keldoclock » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:05 am

:guinness:


You are now one of us.
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Re: A Conversation About the Control of Political Power by t

Postby OneEye589 » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:33 am

If you're comparing the school system to church, there's NO difference at all. It's not because of school being influenced by church, it's just the way people learn.

Church is for people who already believe. No one goes to church expecting their ideas be changed. They go to learn about the material.
People go to school because they've succumbed (or are forced to succumb) to the ideas. They go to learn more about the material.

Either way, if you don't already believe, you won't learn anything.

And comparing the way the room is set up is stupid. Don't go to see a play then. Or a band perform. Or a public speaker talking against religion. They're all presented just like religion.

Would you complain if an athiest was debating religious practices in the same set up?
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