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Postby Natalya » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:06 pm

james+burgundy wrote:Were you a relative to the people aboard Mission KA-BOOM? I personally find NASA to be one of the biggest wastes of tax payer dollars.


So is your state's 10 commandment tablet crap at the courthouse.

No umm seriously two of those things blew up so I can see why people would make fun of it. But Warthead where is your space program?


@warman45:

The problem is that it was meant to be re-useable. The shuttle had three conflicting engineering goals stacked up against its use as a political tool which lead to two disasters and 14 dead:

A: Land like a plane & Reuseablility
B: Transport humans into space
C: Transport cargo into space

This lead to a number of problems. I'll start with the Challenger accident...

The Challenger exploded because of a problem with one of the Solid Rocket Boosters. The SRB's (unlike the big brown tank) don't burn up when they re-enter the atmosphere. Instead they fall into the Atlantic and are recovered by the US Navy. They are then repaired and re-fitted with more fuel and sent on another mission. This refitting takes time, but can be done up to 15 times making the SRB's have 15 runs total.

Anyway, what was also going on at the time of the Challenger accident was that NASA had been under intense pressure since the start of the shuttle program to perform, and well by this time it finally was. In 1985 there were 9 shuttle missions, more than any previous year. When the Challenger blew up in late January 1986 there had also been a shuttle launch earlier in that month. The turn-around time here is pretty crazy. That plus NASA under pressure to keep doing launches encouraged engineers to not delay the launch due to cold weather and because of this pressure NASA never fixed the flaw with the SRB's even though they knew about it since 1977.

This problem meets the issue of multiple engineering goals when you realize that unlike all previous American manned space-flight programs the design of the shuttle prohibited an escape mechanism in case of launch error. The shuttle exploded, but the crew members did not die until they hit the ocean a couple of minutes later. An escape device would have saved them, but the shuttle couldn't be built with that in mind because it was to be re-useable and carry both crew and payload into space, meaning that instead of being on top of the rockets, the cockpit was right next to a huge tank of liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen, and which compromised the ability to put on an escape mechanism because it would have ruined the launch aerodynamics of the shuttle transportation system. The orbiter itself is supposed to land like a plane not a space capsule so when the shuttle explodes the cockpit can't detach from the rest of the orbiter and land itself -- the orbiter got shredded up to the point of the cockpit. There was no possible escape for the crew even though the explosion didn't kill them.

As for Columbia, similar political pressure was on NASA at the time. They were behind in construction of the ISS (which is only now being completed) and the mission control team ended up ignoring reports that during launch some of the foam on the main fuel tank had fallen off during launch and hit the orbiter. If they had taken time to look at that a rescue mission could have been launched (Shuttle Atlantis was ready for launch when Columbia disintegrated on re-entry into the earth's atmosphere.) and the crew could have been saved, but that didn't happen. However the problem of foam hitting the orbiter and damaging the heat-shield tiles would never have happened in the first place if the shuttle was meant only to take a crew into space or to do cargo or whatever, and not land like a plane. Star Wars and our culture make space travel look like flying a plane but the STS is a space ship not an air plane, so we don't need to confuse planes with space ships. It only ends in disaster given our limited propulsion technology.
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Postby Ranger S2H » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:22 pm

Im a bit confused, but I believe you mean the three conflicting engineering goals are:
A: land like a plane
B: reuseability
C: transport humans and cargo into space.

so in the end, politics are to blame. without pressure from the funding, people at NASA can properly do their jobs.
the problem with this is that Space travel is currently done for science, not for profit. I think someone already said that the space program needs something to make money off, like moonmining.
that way, it can fund itself and will no longer depend on the whims of politicians who like the word "budgetcut"
- I refuse to be stopped by something as irrelevant as logic, the laws of physics, or common sense -

if 20 chickens can fit in a brick, how many pingpongballs does a crocodile have to eat so it can swim faster than a washing machine?
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Postby james+burgundy » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:55 pm

AF your sounding like 501st, you need to keep your muddled thoughts on topic or if they are off topic then you at least have to stick with the off topic discussion. All this ten commandment stuff is really not pertaining to the topic and makes you look like yoda_dog with a flame thrower. If you want to flame me or the current state in which I reside then there is a place for that either here or here.

Back to the rest of your post are you sure that they crew members did not die until they hit the ocean? I admit I am not an aerospace engineer or anything fancy like that but it looks to me like they became air solution before they ever got close to the ocean.
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and just because I am sure you all want to see it: The Columbia on its way down
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Postby Warhead » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:01 pm

NatalyaAF wrote: No umm seriously two of those things blew up so I can see why people would make fun of it. But Warthead where is your space program?


In America, they call it NASA, d'uh. They can't go around spouting their lofty ideals for the betterment of mankind and not have us hangers on looking to America to produce. I'm probably as upset as any space geek of the USA at the direction NASA has been taken in the last 20 years, and I'll even admit I have more than a little bit of misplaced anger due to the fail that was Challenger. I used to watch all the launches and now when I think about it I've never bothered with the space program since. I hope the guys at NASA prove me wrong but I wont hold my breath or probably live to see it.
Last edited by Warhead on Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby DavidP » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:09 am

Could someone in America please go around to james+burgundy’s house and beat some sense into him thanks. :wink:

Mr Burgundy please read the links below

Here is the first link
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2245&dat=19860310&id=Sn0zAAAAIBAJ&sjid=aTIHAAAAIBAJ&pg=5905,1016594

Here is a second
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3078062/ns/technology_and_science-space/
stop killing me! ;-)
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Postby Ranger S2H » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:25 am

I believe the yanks on our forum have already organised several J+B-sense-smacking expeditions, but we appear unable to reach or locate his lair.
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Postby james+burgundy » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:27 am

Oh Yeah is DavidP the new Yoda_dog?
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Postby Ranger S2H » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:27 am

what is going on at the european space agency (ESA) by the way? theyre still in business?
- I refuse to be stopped by something as irrelevant as logic, the laws of physics, or common sense -

if 20 chickens can fit in a brick, how many pingpongballs does a crocodile have to eat so it can swim faster than a washing machine?
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Postby Warhead » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:35 am

Well Dave, you know Dave, he's the guy in charge, well he said he'd be popping down to the corner shops because they were all out of biscuits and you know how the others get mid afternoon when they stop for tea and there aren't any biscuits... (You get the idea).
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Postby DavidP » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:12 am

james+burgundy

Oh Yeah is DavidP the new Yoda_dog?


Nope much worse I'm me :P and your like I guy who I use to work with
that never researched anything fully before engaging his mouth.

@ Ranger S2H
yep along with the ESA you have china, Japan and India all having proven
and current programs. note: south Korea and north Korea are both unproven, and the Russian program is paid for by America.
stop killing me! ;-)
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Postby Warhead » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:13 am

Yeah, but none of those have any biscuits.
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Postby james+burgundy » Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:37 am

oh fun more Anti's :D but this one has ego as well as being an anti can life get better? :D
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Postby Keldoclock » Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:14 am

On a note pertaining just a little more to the topic, NASA planned to build a base on the moon by 2019. The idea was to launch rockets from this location, because as the moon has 7 times less gravity, the amount of fuel required would also reduce by 7, making future trips to space cheaper.

Mining asteroids is a very dangerous and expensive procedure, and can be clearly viewed as a financial venture, not one for the betterment of mankind.Thus, it must be founded by entrepreneurs, not NASA. Unfortunately nobody's that damn rich.

However, Obama cut funding for the moonbase program. Damn racist president be hatin' on the moonmen.
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Postby RoC77 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:00 pm

I could see the efficiency of launching from the moon, but I don't think it would be cheaper... You would still have to send the materials from Earth to the moon.... I think they should just focus on a space elevator first...
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Postby Massam » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:30 pm

When do I get my satellites that drop Depleted Uranium Darts? That's what NASA should be doing :twisted:
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