Cave Racers

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Postby Thyclaine » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:23 am

IVhorseman wrote:
Thyclaine wrote:
Bennanteno wrote:Don't forget the possibility of the pilot loosing his/her grip and falling to their death.


Roll an additional 1d10 every turn, and if the number is lower than, say, 2 or 3, then the minifig falls off?


too many die rolls slows up the game. if the d10 rolled is a 1, the engine cuts out and the minifig has one turn before smashing into *object*. if it's a 10, it's too fast and he flies off


Well, it's most likely only going to be 2 players, and there won't be many attack phases, so it shouldn't slow it down too much.
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Postby IVhorseman » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:54 am

Carda wrote:I've also seen where people are assigning stats for Thrust, Speed, and Agility on a 1 to 5 point scale for the models they build. I wonder if this couldn't be applied somewhere...
\

i actually built my own cave racer (pics soon), and have been coming up with a good way to apply a race-type scenario into the brikwars system, with cave racers. coming soon.
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Postby Carda » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:18 am

Potential Kave Racer rules:

Kave Racers must adhere to the construction guidelines to be eligible for competition.

Kave Racers may compete as one of three classes: DTAS*, Heavyweight, and Lightweight. Races are not restricted to only one class, however; a DTAS, a Heavyweight, and a Lightweight may all compete in the same race.

When creating a Kave Racer, you may assign KR points to the model based on the racing division it belongs to.

DTAS racers get 7 KR points.
Heavyweight racers get 8 KR points.
Lightweight racers get 10 KR points.

KR points are applied to the three primary stats common to all Kave Racers: Thrust, Speed, and Agility. Thrust is how quickly the racer can achieve top speed, Speed is the maximum speed the racer can achieve, and Agility is how easily the racer can turn or maneuver. At least one point must be applied to each stat, and all KR points for a racer model must be distributed.

Kave Racers are very fast, very dangerous, and extremely difficult to handle without proper training. Therefore only Pilots and Heroes with piloting skill may operate a Kave Racer.

* DTAS = Duct Tape And Spit

((I'll try to test some rule concepts regarding applying the various stats to Movement, along with some ideas for Unique Events such as Close Quarters Cheating, like riding up beside someone and kicking them in the head.))
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Postby Almighty Benny » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:37 am

a lot of great idea, but not balanced enough for my tastes. Maybe heavyweight KRs should be able to have melee weapons and ranged weapons, whereas lightweight KRs can only have melee weapons. Also, there is almost no incentive to build DTAS KRs at this point. Unless (and this may be what you meant all along), DTAS are what you get when you rebuild a crashed KR or build one from spare parts on the battlefield.

I can't wait to get home and build some of my own!
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Postby Carda » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:07 pm

According to regulations (and this is straight from the folks who started the building trend in the Lego community), weapons mounted to racers are illegal. Hence my idea for kicking opponents in the head as a potential for combat.

Also, the KR point spread is liable to change as I playtest this. I have a DTAS model and a Heavyweight model at the moment; my next plan of attack is a Lightweight so I can balance them out accordingly. But yeah, as the footnote says, DTAS racers are thrown together with whatever junk the mechanic could find; think like Anakin's podracer.

EDIT: I've got photos of my first two models up: Here's the link.
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Postby Almighty Benny » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:45 am

Carda wrote:According to regulations (and this is straight from the folks who started the building trend in the Lego community), weapons mounted to racers are illegal.


Well that's all well and good but this is Brikwars. I'll put weapons on my hamburger before I eat it if I so choose.
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Postby Carda » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:14 am

I was trying to stay close to the spirit of the thing without making it too boring, which is why I'm factoring in "cheating" as a gameplay device.

Besides, these are flying machines intended to travel through subterranean passageways at speeds normally reserved for military fighter jets... while the pilot hangs on for dear life with naught but a helmet for personal safety. I hardly think the addition of weapons would make it any more lethal than it already IS.

And if you really, REALLY want to have weaponry, consider that one of the pieces required for building is a long pointy object, most commonly a spear or sword. It's intended to be part of the hover mechanism, but I'm pretty sure that with sufficient force it could be pretty deadly.

And besides, if you need to strap guns onto everything just to make it more deadly, you need an imagination upgrade.
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Postby piltogg » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:28 pm

wow, I just built a cave racer that is sooo mutch cooler than those.. but I can't find my camera to show it with.... oh well. wouldn't qualify though because the whole front of it is a minigun
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Postby Carda » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:32 pm

After building a few of these things myself now, I think I can make some changes to my initial ideas...

I did some more research and found that the stats that some folks are assigning to their racers actually go to 6 instead of 5. So tweaking the numbers:

DTAS models get 9 KR points.
Heavyweight models get 11 KR points.
Lightweight models get 12 KR points.

Keep in mind that these are only for movement stats. Anything combat or cheating related would be assigned to the driver in standard BW fashion.

I'm also thinking that since it's a race, everyone's turn could happen simultaneously, in a way; that way you don't have the fastest racer getting a lucky roll, going first, and outpacing everyone. Here's my idea:

Each stat will have a dX roll associated with it. If a stat has 1 or 2 KR points assigned to it, you'd roll a d6 for that stat. If a stat has 3 or 4 KR points assigned to it, you'd roll a d8 (or 1d10-2, can't get lower than a 1). And 5 or 6 KR points for that stat would let you roll a d10.

At the start of each turn, all players roll at the same time. Whoever gets the highest thrust roll goes first that round (so it's like initiative, for those who play tabletop RPGs). Ties are broken with successive dice rolls.

Speed is the maximum distance your Kave Racer can move in a single turn: simply double your Speed roll and that's how many inches you can travel. (Or possibly, that's how far you HAVE to travel, even if you're about to hit a wall?)

Agility is how sharply you can turn or dodge. I haven't figured out how to implement that yet (perhaps a bonus to defensive rolls when being attacked?) As for turning, perhaps multiplying the roll times increments of 30 degrees of angle? ...Still working on all this.

I'm also developing a way to measure the pilot's grip, because an easy way to eliminate other competitors would be to separate them from their machines, and with "open cockpit" being quite the understatement here, that would be fairly easy to do.

I welcome more input; the overall concept of this really has me excited. I'm considering taking this to my next game group session and playtesting it.
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Postby IVhorseman » Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:30 pm

okay, Carda did his shot, here's my go at it.

Kave Racers must adhere to all guidelines as to construction that have been set forth, however, melee weapons are allowed to be placed directly on the racer itself.

all kave racers assign stats to their racers by rolling 4d6. they then drop the lowest die, and assign the other three values to speed, thrust, and agility in whatever order they want (i'll go over how important these end up being later).

Racers must all start at the same position of a course, and complete a set number of laps. at the beginning of a round, all players roll a d10 plus their thrust stat. whoever gets the highest total goes first, and all other players go in thrust order.

racers then, at their turn, roll 1d10. this is how many action points they can use. action points can be directly applied to movement (one action point = 1" move), and this number is added to the player's stat for speed to give the total distance moved per turn. however, action points (AP) can also be applied to other things (NOTE: if a 1 is rolled, bad stuff happens. i'll get to it later).

for turning, players must go 1d6 minus their agility stat inches before every 45 degrees of turning. if it looks like they might hit a wall, players may either crash and take negative effects (getting to it), or spend action points to remove 1" off of the turn distance.

excess action points may be spent on attacks, which force bad things to happen to the opponent. for 1 point, players may ram an opposing player's nearby racer to do damage. when doing a ram, sideswipe, or whatever you want to call it, roll 1d6 for each player. losing player has to roll 1d10 on the Ker-kave! table (note: remember all the times i said "bad stuff happens"? well, the same table is used):

1: whoops. kaver explodes. minifig is stranded, and needs to improvise a way to get a new ride.
2-3: massive engine failure. the engine cuts out, and the kaver loses it's stat bonuses until the pilot spends 1d6 action points to fix the problem
4-6: minor engine failure. all stats are halved until the pilot spends 2 action points to fix it.
7-9: smoke cloud: the engine releases a plume of black smoke, blinding the pilot until he fixes it with 2 action points. until then, he cannot turn or fend off attacks.
10: whew! nothing happens!

if a kaver has weapons on it, no matter how many or how sharp, they get +1 to attack rolls in sideswipes. if two players tie, BOTH racers roll on the ker-kave! table.

for more "direct" attacks, racers may also spend action points as individual points if attempting to hijack an enemy racer's ride. racers defend with 1d6: if a racer spends more than the defender's amount of action points in a single attack, he knocks the other guy off his ride, and takes it as his own! however, should he fail, he falls in the dust, pissed off.

if a kaver is dismounted for any reason, it lands on the ground 1d10 inches in front of it's last position.

players may also have different types of personas. though they can't all be covered, your best bet is simply improvising rules on the spot for racer types. EXAMPLE: repairman. repairmen are riders who are very intimate with their rides (giggidy). due to this, they can quickly make adjustments to minimize damage to their rides. whenever they roll on the ker-kave table, they roll twice and use the favored value.

well, tell me what you think!

EDIT: my kave racer. vroom vroom!

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Postby Carda » Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:48 am

I like the changes you made to thrust initiative, although speed seems a bit... slow to me. My cave racer models average out to between 5 and 7 inches in length, so by your reckoning a racer may be stuck with moving less than one car-length in a turn. Maybe double the inches of move per action point spent?

Also, a racer falling off his ride probably isn't going to survive long enough to worry about being stranded; these things are generally traveling at speeds reserved for military jets, and the pilot is clinging for dear life to a pair of handlebars trailing behind it. So repairs would be tricky, too.

The combat seems to work, though I'm considering using the pilot's armor stat for Grip; attacks that jostle the racer have the potential of knocking the handlebars loose from the pilot's grasp, as would extreme speed and sharp turns. If the pilot does get knocked off, then the racer would likely travel 1d6+Speed in a straight line before stopping (or crashing).

And hijacking? Or repairing? At THAT speed? That's a pretty hefty feat; you may want to make sure your pilot is a hero before attempting a stunt like that. Everything else looks pretty sweet, though; I may try a fusion of both rulesets for my first playtest.
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Postby IVhorseman » Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:02 pm

speed may be slow at first, but that's what the 1d10 of points to dump into actions comes in handy. however 2" per point may be better.

falling off your ride i say should be non-lethal simply because it'd be lame to win a race by default simply because the other racers all died.

hijacking and whatnot at these speeds i also find reasonable simply because it's more fun and adds a crazy wild element to the game.
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Postby Gorchek » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:50 pm

Here's my thoughs, based on the V.I.P.E.R. rules.

SPEED gives the maximum safe speed a Kave Racer can travel in a turn. That distance is 6" + Speed. If the racer accelerated above that limit on the previous turn, he must make a skill roll, with a use rating equal to the difference. (ie: last turn, the Grinning Skull accelerated to 12" to catch up, but his speed rating is only 3. Now, he must make a skill roll against use 3).

THRUST shows by how much you can safely change your speed, either up or down. On your turn, you can move as much as your current speed + thrust at no risk (but see SPEED for the risk on the next turn). If you want to move farther then that, make a skill roll for each two extra inch you move, at a use rating of 3 plus the number of previous skill roll made this turn.
Slowing down is safer. You have to move a minimum of your current speed - thrust. If you want to move less, you have to make a single skill roll at a use of 3 + half the extra distance you're trying to avoid. (ie: you need to stop NOW. Your current speed is 8, and your thrust is 4. You have to make a skill roll at use 5.)

AGILITY is the number of safe 45 degree turn they can do in one round. Each other turn requires a skill roll, with a use rating of 3 plus the number of other skill roll the player made this turn. A racer must travel 1" between turns. (ie: the Skull survived his reckless speed, but now must deal with a series of obstacles, forcing him to make 4 turns. His agility of 3 means the first three are no problems, but the fourth requires a skill roll at use 4, since he already made a roll at the start of his turn.)

INITIATIVE is determined by race position. Who ever is last in the race acts first, followed by second last, and so on like Bonn-o-Tron. If that causes too much carnage for your taste, you can do it in reverse: first, then second, and so on, but you're robbing yourself of a chance at spectacular crashes.

KER-KAVE! v2 (use each time a skill roll is failed.)
1 or less.Hope you had a parachute. Your ride tears itself appart in protest to all the abuse you put it through. The racer flies for your current speed in inches, then hits the ground hard. Even if he survived, he's out of the race.
2.Maybe duck tape wasn't a good idea. 2d6 pieces are torn off. Reroll any 6 and add them to the total. If you run out of bricks, see 1 above. Anyone behind you must make a skill roll against half the number of bricks you lost.
3.Oups, pushed it a little too hard. 1d6 pieces are torn off. Any other racers behind you must make a skill roll against 3.
4.As 5, but the engine is having a hard time starting up. Until you succed a use 4 roll, your AGILITY and THRUST stay at zero.
5.The engine stalled. No problems, yet. Finish your turn as normal, but next turn, your AGILITY and THRUST rating drop to zero.
6.You're lucky. The engine only sputtered a little. Finish your turn as normal. Next turn, your AGILITY and THRUST rating are halved (round down).

COLLISION
When a racer comes into contact with anything, make a skill roll at a use rating of his current speed (if hitting an innanimate object), the difference between the speed of the racer and the other object (if they move in the same direction, and yes, it can be less then zero), or the sum of both speed (for head-on collision), plus the number of other skill rolls you've made this turn.
On a success, roll twice on the KER-KAVE! table, at +1, and take the higger roll. On a 7, you take no actual damage (other then a scrapped paint job).
On a failure, roll twice on the KER-KAVE! table, at -1, and take the lower roll.
Note that you have to roll even if the use rating is 0 or less. A 1 is an automatic failure.


Now, this is a first draft more then anything, but I hope someone else will find some of these idea usefull for their version.
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Postby Carda » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:15 pm

IVhorseman wrote:falling off your ride i say should be non-lethal simply because it'd be lame to win a race by default simply because the other racers all died.

But that would mean that you're clearly the best racer since none of you opponents could hack it.
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Postby IVhorseman » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:01 pm

technically yes, but i know that i'd be really pissed if early on my racer died in a firey crash, and everyone else got to keep on racing. excluding other players from play entirely is a terrible thing. giving them at least SOME hope however, keeps the game fun and interesting.
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