A Challenge:

[AlphaLurker]

How are you sure this pollitical system, out of all systems, is foolproof? How do you know someone (or some group) won't just 'work the system'?

[piltogg]

there absolutely will be people working the system. It will just be an intellectual and genetic elite rather than an economic elite. Thus why it's beneficial.

[Zupponn]

well... they have to pass a test to get those votes. So they might still be idiots, but at least they know things and therefore will be able to make an informed decision.

What about if what they know is wrong? If the ideas held by these "experts" on such things as business and science are incorrect, then there's no way for new ideas to really form. By using this system, you stem the growth of ideas and innovation, much of which comes from the uninformed masses that get no say in your system.

[Ross_Varn]

How are you sure this pollitical system, out of all systems, is foolproof? How do you know someone (or some group) won't just 'work the system'?

It's inevitable. There are two possible outcomes to this situation:

-Parties with slightly differing opinions going head to head within the system, snagging supporters and pieces of the government to squabble and bludgeon each other with.

Or:

-Suppression of individuals, who would otherwise be allowed to vote normally, being rejected by the Party's power to overrule in their "testing" phase. Hell, in his society, I'd have opinions that would... chafe a bit. I'd either end up locked out of ever being able to affect politics- along with every other person sharing my opinions. Or, y'know, I'd end up dead.

Either way? Don't deny this, mate. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Your partisan leadership would end up locked into the same pattern that the "ruling families" are now in- deadlocked into the future. Countries failing around them, as they attempt to retain the semblance of power they believe is their given right, because they're better than every. one. else.

And guess who defines that?

They do.

You would.

Hear it from my uncouth, cocky, atheist, artist, jackass, teenaged mouth. From the source of our country's- our country's- the place that allows you to say this without disappearing into the night- the place that demonstrates to the rest of the world what, exactly, those rights- those basic, human, rights- given rights- mean.

This? This is the abstract example of the Nazis. Communism. Socialists. Those specters in the night we are taught to fear, because of their opinion of the common man.

God bless America.

[piltogg]

A valid point I suppose. I'm rather unsure how best to refute that argument, although I feel like it is probably not the case. I'll ask the source and get back to you on that one.

We thank you for your constructive criticism.

for now, I'll leave you with this excerpt:

"The race you can never win (unless you're one of "us")

You're the fastest runner in the world and you take your place at the starting line for the most important race of your life. You look up the track and see some obese guy in a suit standing five metres from the finishing tape. You complain to the race organiser but he tells you to mind your own business and concentrate on your own race. You think it must be some bizarre joke and it will all get sorted out later. The starting pistol sounds and you set off, running faster than you ever have in your life. But no matter how fast you run, no matter how good you are, you'll never beat the fat man, puffing, panting and waddling his way to the finishing line.

Fattie wins the gold medal, and receives the adulation of the crowd. Two attractive blondes throw themselves at him. Everyone tells him how brilliant he is. He says he owes it all to God and his loving family who bought him a place at the best of schools and paid a million dollars to allow him to start five metres from the finishing line. The crowd cheers and demands that the winner's parents be allowed to stand on the podium alongside their brilliant son. A reporter asks father, mother and son what they think of the second-placed athlete who broke the world record but still lost. They all shrug and say in unison, 'Well, he's not a member of our family, so who cares.' The crowd, full of like-minded families, rises to acclaim them. 'If only we could all be like them,' they sigh. The world-record holder goes back to his housing project and dead end job. His colleagues tell him he's a loser, and turn their backs on him.

Welcome to the anti-meritocratic world, this world. What are you going to do about it? Will you stand back and watch while cronyism, nepotism, the old school tie, the private club, the right university, the right accent, the right background, the right secret society, the right religion, the right family, destroy merit so that their chosen ones can prosper at your expense. It's time to smash the conspiracy. Break up all the mechanisms that allow privileged groups within society to rig the system in their favour and penalise anyone who doesn't belong to their insidious cliques.

The Meritocracy Party seeks to ensure that everyone, as far as possible, starts the race of life from the same starting line. Then we'll see who the fastest runners really are; who deserves the medals, who should justly receive the acclaim and the rewards. At the moment, who you know (nepotism and cronyism) is vastly more important than what you know (merit). How often do we hear the mantra, 'Networking is the fastest way up the ladder.' Meritocracy will push this toxic ladder over. From now on, demonstrable talent, not your social connections, will be the fastest way to make progress in life."

[Keldoclock]

If you can fix the issues with corruption, meritocracy paired with facism will create a depressing, but fair world.

I myself am a minarchist.

The current system in the world isn't FAIR, and it seems you are on the losing side. It's not all that difficult to get to the winning side if you work hard enough, and then you'll be defending all these arguments.


System is big bulky and takes hundreds of years to change. Getting into a good position in the system itself will take 30-40 years. Considerably easier, and the option I'm going with. Finance is a fun job, and you make a lot of money. I'm getting my major degree most likely in Business Administration when I go to college. All I have to do is work my ass off for about eight months, and get a scholarship. A pain in the ass, but I can live with it, and come out for the better.

[piltogg]

(I) says : "Thats where the MERLIN computer comes in. No emotion, no self interst, optimal modelling - the experts in each field work within the provided modelling. If the knights of the round table try to make a bad decision then, to quote Little Britain "Computer says no""

we are also writing bits into the constitution at the moment which make absolutely certain that no one can ever again declare war on an abstract concept such as "terror" and gain the emergency powers for extended periods of time by doing that.

[Ross_Varn]

pariah dogs and wandering madmen/
barking at strangers and speaking in tongues/
the ebb and flow of tide and fortune/
electrical changes are charging up the young

it's a far cry from the world we thought we'd inherit/
it's a far cry from the way we thought we'd share it/
you can almost feel the currents flowing/
you can almost see the circuits blowing

one day I feel I'm on top of the world/
and the next it's rolling over me/
I can get back on/
I can get back on

-Rush, Far Cry, from Snakes and Arrows.

I've now reason to believe that today's disillusioned youth, convinced through the burning embers of our country's crappy educational system, decide that a method such as this is the method to get "what's fair for us all". Face it. You, as a member of these 'rebels', are not in a position in which to judge the world. This argument is almost as stupid as the dude I saw who slapped an Anarchy tag on his Jeep- he does realize that in a state of anarchy, there's no more gas for his Jeep, right?

Piltogg, I'm comparing your views to Nazism because of the principle I see emerging from behind this claptrap about what you and your friends deserve. It seems to be simple- dethrone the rulers, place representatives of the people, for the people, and let the people judge. But then it falls apart. If some subset of the "people" that you're attempting to protect from the "rulers" express discontent at this system, it is likely that they will be silenced somehow, through media or personal action. Silenced opponents cannot act as activists for change in the current government. A lack of opposing viewpoints in power leads to stagnation. Stagnation leads to locked doors, and the same rulers from before in different guises, only now the "people" have lost what they had previously- a chance to raise themselves to the same level, through free market economics, because your exclusive club is only accepting the hip, non-rich, trendy politicos.

You become your enemy in all but word.

I'm not giving constructive criticism. I'm pointing out where I, a third-rate teen who's going to be able to vote in the next election system, has no idea what the hell he wants, no idea who the hell he's going to support, and a mediocre basis by which to judge politics, find your statements to be... more than fantasy. The actions of someone who believes that they cannot change the world through their thoughts or works, nor rise to the same challenge as their "leaders" and take them on from a level field, but thinks that they must instead throw down the leaders because they will not accept him.

That example is meaningless. That man- that lout- will never affect me. I will finish with my head held high, because this isn't the rat race, and I have my own honor to take care of. Of course, if I'm sufficiently pissed enough, I will work my little rat ass off, end up at that guy's door someday, and buy his empire out from under his lazy fat ass. This is where we can do that, Piltogg. The way forward is not through revolution. The system is not compromised. The conspiracy does not need to be smashed, because it is inefficient enough where I could challenge it on it's own level.

In short?

I want to hear what you're saying. Because I want to know what to say to defeat it.

Come at me, bro.

[piltogg]

I think that the idea is that you, as someone who doesn't have shit-tons of money to start out with, who probably didn't get sent to an elite private school, who probably can't afford to go to a university like Harvard or Yale, and even if you could afford it, would you be admitted into the power structure inherent in such institutions? Even if you were smart and dedicated enough to end up as a congressman or have a similar position in society, do you think that you could make any lasting change from such a position? The problem is, that no matter how hard you work, no matter how much money you make, you will never be on the same level as these people. Because they were at the top from the very beginning, and you would need to claw and fight your way to the top for years to even get close to their level. How can we know if it is they or you who deserves a position of power? They will always get a head-start, and until that changes, there isn't really much you can do. This is why the rich despise the neuveu Riche, because they haven't got the same network, the same connections, the same background, they just are not the same. The money doesn't matter anywhere near as much as these connections, and simply put, you don't have them. Obviously, this is unfair to those who aspire to greatness but were not born into it. But it affects us on a societal level as well. Look at gorge bush jr. for example, there wasn't anything special at all about that man, yet he served two terms, and held vast executive power. How did this come about? Rich dad, influential dad, 18th cousin to the Britannic royal bloodline, private school, yale university, skull and bones society, and in his election against Kerry, he was against a fellow bones-man. I don't think that anyone here would disagree with me when I say that America is worse off than it originally was due to the actions of this man, and yet somehow he ended up not only getting elected once but again. AND his dad was also president. So... what can we conclude? this is not a democracy. It merely masquerades as such. You may think that you can win in this system, but your not even a part of the system. They operate on an entirely different level than we do. Different laws, different communities, different people, different expectations. It's an aristocracy. It's pretty bad here in America, but where this really becomes obvious is in the UK. Take a look at the history of the house of lords and you will find that the nobility still exists, and we are just peasants by a different name. This is the system which must be destroyed. This is why it's not good enough to just go with the flow. And in all honesty in my case it's also because I have a really big ego, and feel the need to change the world rather than just live in it.

[Ross_Varn]

*shrugs*

You've heard me out, so there you go. I'm of the opinion that freedom still exists here, and these guys aren't hunting me down for saying that, so that's my case in point. Good luck with that.