Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)?

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Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)?

Postby muffinman42 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:00 pm

With the recent gun restrictions talks I've seen a LOT of americans who adamantly think that the only reason they aren't in some coal pit working 24/7 with no food to fuel the white-houses fires is because they own a semi-automatic riffle. Which implies two things:
1: They hate the US government since they believe them to be evil (dispite democratic election)
2: They believe that they could defeat the US army...
You know the guy's with theses:
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and many other weapons (including ICBMs!)

Interesting since it's a Right the Government SHOULD provide every citizen with arms(Including criminals and babies), and to adhere to the social context of the 2nd amendment, they should be equivalent to the Armies weapons so that you could defend your self from the Government..


Maybe it's the lack of Heathcare, or too many action movies, but either way you all need to either stock up on jet fighters.
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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby Arkbrik » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:06 pm

Many patriots hate their country. It's the same thing over here.
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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby Silverdream » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:13 pm

Your post is an idiot.
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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby samuelzz10 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:37 pm

Have you ever seen the tree house of horror episode where springfield gives all their guns away, and billy the kid comes back to life? that is what everyone thinks will happen if they give up arms.
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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby GeneralOfDeath » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:43 pm

Mark Twain wrote:The nation is divided, half patriots and half traitors. And no man can tell which from which.


Mark Twain wrote:Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.
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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby stubby » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:09 pm

muffinman42 wrote:Interesting since it's a Right the Government SHOULD provide every citizen with arms(Including criminals and babies), and to adhere to the social context of the 2nd amendment, they should be equivalent to the Armies weapons so that you could defend your self from the Government..


The thing the folks on the Right forget is that the 2nd Amendment has only been an individual right for about 30 years or so. For the first 200 years of American existence, it was for "well-regulated militias" organized under the command of Congress; it had nothing to do with every backwoods yokel having the right to own a gun. Some of our very earliest Supreme Court cases were about clearing up that misinterpretation. (Just as importantly, the parts of the Constitution that say that guns are definitely not for using against the government are much higher up in the Constitution than the part where any Amendments start.)

The thing the folks on the Left forget is that, even though the current interpretation of the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with the founding fathers' intention, it still became Constitutional law just like any other part of Constitutional law as soon as the Supreme Court said so. That's their job. The fact that individual gun rights weren't even on the Constitutional radar before the eighties doesn't change the fact that that's what the 2nd Amendment means now.

So, now that guns really are a right, they're still a pretty new right, and so it's understandable that the government hasn't had time yet to create the entitlement gun welfare programs to make sure we all have our rightful guns.
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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby Keldoclock » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:33 pm

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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby Zupponn » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:28 pm

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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby Zahru II » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:47 am

I have this vision that Fedex will deliver a gun to every household one day, and then the President announces it's Battle Royale
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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby Arkbrik » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:24 am

Zahru II wrote:I have this vision that Fedex will deliver a gun to every household one day, and then the President announces it's Battle Royale

YES. This needs to be made into a movie.
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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby Tzan » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:19 am

That would be an interesting idea for a movie or tv show.
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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby Nitewatchman » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:52 pm

stubby wrote:
muffinman42 wrote:Interesting since it's a Right the Government SHOULD provide every citizen with arms(Including criminals and babies), and to adhere to the social context of the 2nd amendment, they should be equivalent to the Armies weapons so that you could defend your self from the Government..


The thing the folks on the Right forget is that the 2nd Amendment has only been an individual right for about 30 years or so. For the first 200 years of American existence, it was for "well-regulated militias" organized under the command of Congress; it had nothing to do with every backwoods yokel having the right to own a gun. Some of our very earliest Supreme Court cases were about clearing up that misinterpretation. (Just as importantly, the parts of the Constitution that say that guns are definitely not for using against the government are much higher up in the Constitution than the part where any Amendments start.)

The thing the folks on the Left forget is that, even though the current interpretation of the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with the founding fathers' intention, it still became Constitutional law just like any other part of Constitutional law as soon as the Supreme Court said so. That's their job. The fact that individual gun rights weren't even on the Constitutional radar before the eighties doesn't change the fact that that's what the 2nd Amendment means now.

So, now that guns really are a right, they're still a pretty new right, and so it's understandable that the government hasn't had time yet to create the entitlement gun welfare programs to make sure we all have our rightful guns.

I've never really considered the idea that it's a new right to be entirely true.

I'd be interested to see happenings from before the supreme court ruled definitively that it was an individual right where there was any problem with private gun ownership.
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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby Tzan » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:17 pm

Nitewatchman wrote:I'd be interested to see happenings from before the supreme court ruled definitively that it was an individual right where there was any problem with private gun ownership.


Well there was no problem with drinking and driving.
There was no problem with priests snuggling boys.
There was no problem with blacks not voting.
There was no problem with women not voting.
There was no problem with interracial marriage being illegal.
There was no problem with dapper gentlemen existing, because they were hiding.

Because nobody gave a crap to fix those things a hundred years ago.

Just because nobody had a problem with those things doesn't make any of them right either.
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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby GeneralOfDeath » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:44 pm

Nitewatchman wrote:
stubby wrote:
muffinman42 wrote:Interesting since it's a Right the Government SHOULD provide every citizen with arms(Including criminals and babies), and to adhere to the social context of the 2nd amendment, they should be equivalent to the Armies weapons so that you could defend your self from the Government..


The thing the folks on the Right forget is that the 2nd Amendment has only been an individual right for about 30 years or so. For the first 200 years of American existence, it was for "well-regulated militias" organized under the command of Congress; it had nothing to do with every backwoods yokel having the right to own a gun. Some of our very earliest Supreme Court cases were about clearing up that misinterpretation. (Just as importantly, the parts of the Constitution that say that guns are definitely not for using against the government are much higher up in the Constitution than the part where any Amendments start.)

The thing the folks on the Left forget is that, even though the current interpretation of the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with the founding fathers' intention, it still became Constitutional law just like any other part of Constitutional law as soon as the Supreme Court said so. That's their job. The fact that individual gun rights weren't even on the Constitutional radar before the eighties doesn't change the fact that that's what the 2nd Amendment means now.

So, now that guns really are a right, they're still a pretty new right, and so it's understandable that the government hasn't had time yet to create the entitlement gun welfare programs to make sure we all have our rightful guns.

I've never really considered the idea that it's a new right to be entirely true.

I'd be interested to see happenings from before the supreme court ruled definitively that it was an individual right where there was any problem with private gun ownership.


Remember that a well-regulated militia would be made up of individual landowners, each bringing their own equipment (see: gun) to the unit. So, in the end the second ammendment defends personal ownership for the purpose keeping civilian militias feasable.
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Re: Why does America (the people) hate America (the country)

Postby Nitewatchman » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:50 pm

Tzan wrote:
Nitewatchman wrote:I'd be interested to see happenings from before the supreme court ruled definitively that it was an individual right where there was any problem with private gun ownership.


Well there was no problem with drinking and driving.
There was no problem with priests snuggling boys.
There was no problem with blacks not voting.
There was no problem with women not voting.
There was no problem with interracial marriage being illegal.
There was no problem with dapper gentlemen existing, because they were hiding.

Because nobody gave a crap to fix those things a hundred years ago.

Just because nobody had a problem with those things doesn't make any of them right either.



Yeah, but those are completely separate issues. There's nothing wrong with owning a gun, just like there's nothing wrong with owning a car. It's what you do with it that makes it dangerous, and before you go there, bombs and whatnot don't make sense, since they're expressly for the purpose of destroying things and people. Guns have other uses, such as personal defense, competitive shooting, and hunting. Those other examples you gave are completely unrelated and just an attempt to sensationalize the issue. We didn't take away everyone's cars when they used them irresponsibly, we instituted programs to create more responsible citizens. The effectiveness of said programs is questionable as far as annihilating the problem, but it was still a far superior course of action to just saying, "NO MORE CARS!" and being done with it; we actually sought to deal with the people on that issue and not just try and make the specific course of action they were taking impossible, which does nothing to change the individuals involved. I would point out, though, that if you're going to link the response to drunk driving and the response to gun violence so closely, it did bring about greater safety features in vehicles. But the link between vehicle safety features and what sorts of weapons are and aren't allowable is a little weak, as the safety features did not impede the performance of the machines.

Of course, gun rights are certainly different than vehicular ownership and drinking and driving, but that doesn't mean they're different in some negative sort of way. We don't need them for some immediate, every-day use, but they do serve as a preparedness measure for personal defense, and as stated have recreational uses. You can say that's the job of the police all you want, but they aren't omnipresent, and on top of that, putting all the pressure on them to keep everyone safe all the time isn't a good idea. If nothing else, it just puts us in danger of ending up in a police state(and certain people say we already are beginning to live in one), as they'll need more and more control to actually keep us safe if we start throwing out the means to our own protection.

Now, if we're going to be supporting the assault weapons ban, that's a little different than just getting rid of guns in general. If you really think people having access to certain firearms or types of firearms is a problem, and there are reasonable arguments for that, then you should still be just as pissed as pro-gun people are. The assault weapons ban is TRASH as far as doing anything effective. Assault weapons, as they were classified 94-2004 and as they will be classified again, are just weapons with military cosmetic features. Features that have almost NO EFFECT on the function of the gun.

Now, certainly some iconic "assault weapons" will be banned, but most of these have such a high price tag that criminals don't even bother using them, since they can't afford them. I looked at the list from the old ban, and all the qualifiers for an assault weapon, and it was nonsense. People aren't lying when they say that most of what it dealt with was cosmetic features. They really weren't. Most of the stipulations allowed for semi-automatic clip fed guns, so long as they didn't have something stupid like a laser sight AND an externally attached spare magazine on them. It basically limited their features, but allowed the semi-automatic action and removable clip to remain. Which is where all the killing business came from.

And the ten-shot clip thing isn't even based on anything reasonable; one of the guys who founded Ruger firearms suggested and pushed for it because he just thought it was a safe number. The fact that there are only ten bullets doesn't really change a whole lot; reloading a gun with a removable clip is easy and takes little to no time. Unless the guy runs out of ammo when he's five feet away from you, you won't even get a chance to tackle him.

Another thing is the fact that, yeah, what we're concerned about because of Sandy Hook is keeping the guns away from the mentally ill. Go read the wikipedia page on Columbine. Seriously. If you're going to make an argument for the proposed legislation, GO READ IT. These two kids acquired firearms and extended clips covered by the ban illegally, and two of the weapons they used weren't even banned to begin with; they just modified their shotguns illegally after they got them. The police even KNEW they had them a year or so in advance, but they didn't do anything.

If you're so adamant about gun control, and this isn't just in response to Tzan, at least have the balls to push for what you really need to try and get the effect you're going for; forced buy-backs and incredibly strict laws like those found in the UK and Australia. Otherwise, it's just going to be another worthless law that inconveniences gun enthusiasts for the sake of consoling the public but ultimately doing nothing to solve the problem at hand. At least that would do a bit to stop some mentally unstable individuals from lazily purchasing guns(since really, it is very easy to get a hold of them) and shooting up schools.


I will also point out that out of all the executive actions Obama took to attempt to deal with the problem, only two dealt with mental health. He wants to make sure the FBI has proper access to medical records for background checks, and he's putting Joe Biden in charge of figuring out if we can blame video games or not. Nothing to actually help the mentally unstable; just some crap to attempt make sure they can't hurt us.


I feel like if we institute background checks for ammunition purchases, background checks for private sales(which Obama does have on the table, and I think it's a good idea), and a required psychological exam within so many months of purchasing a firearms, things would get better(Not that they're that bad as it is), at least as far as violence involving legal guns goes. With the new healthcare stuff, we should be able to just get psychological examination for free anyways, so I don't even see how it's a huge problem to do that.
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