"Leader" units

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Re: "Leader" units

Postby stubby » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:33 pm

Skill was my first thought, because that's how I currently value the Thrall sacrifices - but then sacrificing a Vermin or a Cannon Fodder gets you just as much bonus as sacrificing any frontline troop. CP is a very direct means of making the bonus equivalent to the value sacrificed, and you don't have to be tracking overall budgets to know the value of one scapegoat.

A Skill-based bonus is harder to write, because then I either have to write all the exceptions, or I have to mark all the exceptions with a Specialty: Worthless or something. Alternately, I can say that only minifigs with a Skill of 1d8 or higher can be scapegoats, but that really limits your options as a Leader.
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby *CRAZYHORSE* » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:22 pm

I like this idea. it works well with the idea of having an executioner in your army to hunt down the scape goat.
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby aoffan23 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:21 am

aoffan23 wrote:
stubby wrote:The dice pool would work, but it's just equivalent to what he would have if he were a SuperNatural unit. It means that there'd be no difference between killing an enemy Leader or killing some random enemy 3d6 wizard. It doesn't make him feel particularly important.


Maybe have the same dice pool as a penalty? While the leader is still alive, they grant the bonus dice. If they die, then the opponent who killed them gets to use those dice to penalize units however they see fit. So let's go with the 3d6 example, and say the opponent (after killing the leader) rolls a 5, a 3, and a 1. Again, I haven't read up on SuperNatural Dice, but I assume 1s are crit fails as always. So the player uses the 5 to stop a unit of regular minifigs from moving (-5"), the 3 to make a tank gunner miss (-3 to skill, assuming the skill roll is low enough), and the last die does nothing.

It would be pretty cool to see a player scramble to enough units work together to make it so that at least one unit could avoid a negative effect. It's the kind of desperation you'd see if an army lost their most valuable commander.

aoffan23 wrote:Just thought about how overpowered that effect could become, but I think I know a way around it. On the first turn after the leader dies, the opponent can use the full dice pool. Every turn afterward, they remove one die from the pool until there are none remaining, and the force has successfully regrouped. More powerful leaders will have much more dire consquences, and the player will feel it for more turns.


Sorry to dig this up, but I'm just wondering what stubby thinks of this idea, since I didn't really see it addressed. Too complicated?
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby IVhorseman » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:38 am

To oppressive. If two people had leaders like that, they'd just use both of them to slow down each other's combat: Hell no.
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby aoffan23 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:05 pm

IVhorseman wrote:To oppressive. If two people had leaders like that, they'd just use both of them to slow down each other's combat: Hell no.


The dice penalties only apply after the leader is killed, and they run out shortly thereafter.
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby stubby » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:40 pm

I don't have an opinion yet. I like the idea of something bad happening when the leader dies, but this penalty doesn't have the kind of special flavor that gets me excited just yet. I was waiting to see if it inspired further development from anyone else.
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby IVhorseman » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:03 pm

Oh my bad, I misread that as something that the leader was able to do every friggin turn to the enemy team. It's nowhere near overpowered if it's just a one-time effect. Extending it over multiple turns is cool, but might be a bit game-wrecking. I guess the only thing to do is play-test it: I'll pitch the idea next brikwar and see what the consensus is.

Honestly, I don't really see why a leader guy's ability needs to be different than the thrall rules. Don't vermin/dimmies/j+b/cannon fodder only have 1d4 skill? You could just have a catch-all saying that only standard minifigs or better can be sacrificed, since the retarded d4 is already subject to so many specialties. What has 1d6 skill and would be a no-brainer sacrifice?
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby Arkbrik » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:42 am

Both Vermin and Cannon Fodder has 1d6 Skill.
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby sjosten » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:23 am

How about this: if a leader dies, all friendly figs in 1d6 have to spend the rest of the turn trying to build a memorial to him. In addition, depending on what exactly the leader did, it might be possible to send the leader's killer/ an enemy leader into Antagonist in Mourning, where that fig takes some form of (most likely WISG rolled) penalty.
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby Bragallot » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:04 am

I think leaders have the potential to be quite heroic. It takes a lot of skill to send men to their deaths effectively and with a maximizing carnage effect. Certain tactical manoeuvres can change the tide of war and even history. There's a reason people like Alexander the Great have a heroic reputation. Take Alesia (Caesar) or Pharsalus (Caesar again): the men won the battle, but they couldn't have done it without his leadership. Thanks to Caesar, his army wasn't routed as quickly as it should've been and lots of Gauls were killed instead of smaller amounts of Romans -> More Carnage! That said, I think people are usually kinda uninspired when it comes to thinking up tactical feats and when it comes to simple mods I often lose track of them. I'm thinking of maybe trying to give the Falx a commander unit and a hero next time I field a large part of them to see how that works.
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby IVhorseman » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:58 pm

stubby wrote:The unit's CP cost is immediately converted into Instant Benny bonus points which can be divided up and spent during that turn by the Leader and/or any other subordinate units.


Ok this is worth asking for clarification: does that CP bonus include weapons/armor/equipment? If it's just the fig it'll be a LOT easier to keep track of, but if it's weapons and everything else too, it'll turn into a shit-show. Unfortunately on the other hand, it makes the decision between scapegoating the minifig with an assault rifle and the minifig with a frying pan a hell of a lot easier.
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby *CRAZYHORSE* » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:24 pm

I think only the minifig's skill would be the best option here. Keep it simple.
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby IVhorseman » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:56 pm

Arkbrik wrote:Both Vermin and Cannon Fodder has 1d6 Skill.


I guess this isn't the thread to really talk about this (but fuck it because :rule7: ), but why don't they have 1d4? You could even drop the mook weapon down to a use of 2 and it'd still work great.
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby stubby » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:35 pm

Because they are designed for there to be a lot of them, and people have lots of d6es in a way that they don't have lots of d4s. It's a convenience thing.

It wouldn't matter anyway, though, d6es vs d4s is not a good way to divide guys worth sacrificing from guys who aren't. Civilians have a d4 and they're TOTALLY sacrificable.
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Re: "Leader" units

Postby pkbrennan » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:42 pm

stubby wrote:Civilians have a d4 and they're TOTALLY sacrificable.


Isn't that always the way in war?
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