Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

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Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby pkbrennan » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:19 pm

I was looking back at this old thread and thinking "these people are still thinking of space ships in much the same way as old sailing ships..."

You know the old sailing ship idea that the bigger it is, the less manoeuvrable becomes? In space, forget this. There's no friction to affect how fast a SHIP can turn - the only factor being gravity wells, and they can be easily negated with more thrust.

There is no reason to believe that a big SHIP cannot be as manoeuvrable as a space fighter - it is merely the use of common Sci-Fi tropes that lead us to believe this.

It might be convenient in the rules to make SHIPs less manoeuvrable for good game-play reasons, but that is about it.

Edit: I think I stuck this in the wrong subforum. Can a mod move if appropriate please?
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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby lorbaat » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:43 pm

Unfortunately, while things are weightless in space, they are not massless.

http://www.teachersdomain.org/resource/ ... accelmass/

An object of greater mass takes more force to accelerate.
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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby Silverdream » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:03 pm

lorbaat wrote:Unfortunately, while things are weightless in space, they are not massless.

http://www.teachersdomain.org/resource/ ... accelmass/

An object of greater mass takes more force to accelerate.


:owned:
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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby pkbrennan » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:45 pm

Owned? Not really. Just a factor I already discounted when I mentioned just needing more thrust to do things with. But as I said, a SHIP should be no less manoeuvrable than a space fighter if given the appropriate amount of thrust.

Remember those space fighters in Babylon 5 that could stop dead because they can turn their rear thrusters forwards? There is no reason one cannot do something like that on a SHIP, other than perhaps RL stability of Lego Parts, and that can be solved with a bit of Technic Lego and some ingenuity.

My basic premise holds true - space combat IRL would be totally different to naval or aerial combat, when it finally does happen.
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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby Arkbrik » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:27 pm

pkbrennan wrote:My basic premise holds true - space combat IRL would be totally different to naval or aerial combat, when it finally does happen.

You are correct. But this is not IRL.

:sparta:

This is a universe where the SHIPs of space manouver majestically and ponderously on the waves of the ether, only occasionally remembering that they can fly above or below each other, surrounded by clouds of dogfighting spacefighters pulling off crazy awesome swooshing stunts. A universe where explosions in space definitely make sounds.

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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby Quantumsurfer » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:18 pm

I've been working on my own system for microspace for some time and the above few posts are essentially what I've run into. In fact, you get this in most game design. I wonder if I should say all game design but since I've not designed every game ever, I can't say for sure. Design philosophy, approach, should be directing your rules decisions. That overall result produces the kinds of experiences players tend to have when playing with your ruleset. I find that MicroSpace is highly polarized in this regard. Players seem to want either extreme realism or extreme fantasy. And, as usual, both stances tend to ignore the blatant fact that each intrudes upon the other. Unless you're Michio Kaku, a real life rocket scientist, or have actually driven an honest to god starship, your best guess as to what it would be like to fly a capital ship or starfighter is probably just that, a wild conjecture. Enough of us are smart enough or nerdy enough to piece together a decent picture but its pure arrogance or pure silliness to assume we've got it nailed because we watched a bunch of Star Trek or whatever. And on the other hand, part of the reason we like space stuff has to do with realism, with the scientific aspect of it. If it were just like a battle on the water, we wouldn't give as much of a shit. Much as we might romanticize it, we like things like zero-g and the implications of celestial phenomena.

Which is why I think
pkbrennan wrote:space combat IRL would be totally different to naval or aerial combat,


is a great starting place, design wise. We know that we want to make it different, to make it stand out somehow. Now, the normal BrikWars rules can rightfully handle space combat all on their own...no extra MS rules needed, just a simple statement of scale readjustment. BW is not solely focused on space combat though and must remain versatile to many concepts/genres. That's its design philosophy. So by making this statement of intent, that space combat should be significantly different, we're also effectively saying we want to create a game system that focuses only on this one aspect. And the only reason this is a subgame instead of a full on different game is because we're lazy and Mike has already done so much of the work for us. Let's abscond with his creation and modify it some. Don't know how he's going to feel about that though...

In any case, I think this
Arkbrik wrote:But that's just how I roll you do what you want

is the best approach. My own system is an exercise in moderation between the two extremes. Its an attempt to balance the tension building realistic aspects and exciting dramatic aspects. Its not for everyone but I like it and my players like it so far, so that's what we'll use.
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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby stubby » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:30 pm

pkbrennan wrote:Owned? Not really. Just a factor I already discounted when I mentioned just needing more thrust to do things with. But as I said, a SHIP should be no less manoeuvrable than a space fighter if given the appropriate amount of thrust.

Remember those space fighters in Babylon 5 that could stop dead because they can turn their rear thrusters forwards? There is no reason one cannot do something like that on a SHIP, other than perhaps RL stability of Lego Parts, and that can be solved with a bit of Technic Lego and some ingenuity.

My basic premise holds true - space combat IRL would be totally different to naval or aerial combat, when it finally does happen.

I disagree. Leverage is also a factor. If you apply enough thrust on a large ship to match the maneuverability of a small ship, the tension on the ship components increases cubically with size rather than linearly. It's the same reason Superman can pick up a car but couldn't really pick up a battleship - not because Superman isn't strong enough, but because the material of the battleship itself isn't strong enough to handle the amount of force required.

To make it work, the SHIP would have to be covered in thusters from tip to tail, synchronized by computer to accelerate all sections of the ship evenly and make sure no one section was subject to undue stress from maneuvering. And while the volume and mass increase cubically, the surface area of the ship increases only as a square, so you very rapidly run out of places to put thrusters. So, theoretically possible, but not very practical.
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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby Quantumsurfer » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:36 pm

stubby wrote:not because Superman isn't strong enough, but because the material of the battleship itself isn't strong enough to handle the amount of force required.


Like that awful scene in Superman 3 with the frozen lake.
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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby Zupponn » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:03 am

stubby wrote:I disagree. Leverage is also a factor. If you apply enough thrust on a large ship to match the maneuverability of a small ship, the tension on the ship components increases cubically with size rather than linearly. It's the same reason Superman can pick up a car but couldn't really pick up a battleship - not because Superman isn't strong enough, but because the material of the battleship itself isn't strong enough to handle the amount of force required.

I saw 'thrust' and 'leverage' and expected a sex joke.
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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby stubby » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:31 am

My dad used to work for a high end computer joystick company called Thrustmaster. I've heard so many of these jokes, you wouldn't believe. His favorite time of year was the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, because it was always held at the same time as the Adult Video Awards and no one was ever sure which industry he was from.

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"Latex entertainment products"
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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby Zupponn » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:50 am

stubby wrote:My dad used to work for a high end computer joystick company called Thrustmaster. I've heard so many of these jokes, you wouldn't believe. His favorite time of year was the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, because it was always held at the same time as the Adult Video Awards and no one was ever sure which industry he was from.

"Thrustmaster? What do they make?"

"Latex entertainment products"

:lol: Nice.
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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby Natalya » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:38 am

Inertia would be a big problem. Also, the g-forces acting on the crew would be enormous. The amount of energy put into the inertial dampeners would also have to increase if the maneuvers were increasing. The power output of the SHIP would have to grow faster than the size of the SHIP.
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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby pkbrennan » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:25 am

We have all these supercomputers wasting time calculating nuclear explosions and stuff and not one of them to our knowledge are engaged in simulating space combat? This is such a shame as it would be a very interesting simulation to run...

Yes, there are a lot of factors we have to take into account, but that is half the fun - working out how to do something we just are not doing yet. I am looking forwards to the day when future generations will fly amongst the stars, even though I will never live to see it.
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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby Whiteagle » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:46 pm

Natalya wrote:Inertia would be a big problem. Also, the g-forces acting on the crew would be enormous. The amount of energy put into the inertial dampeners would also have to increase if the maneuvers were increasing. The power output of the SHIP would have to grow faster than the size of the SHIP.

Bah, you'd waste space on a Crew?
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Re: Space SHIP Manoeuvrability

Postby Zahru II » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:56 pm

I dare anyone to build that
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