Fire and Movement

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Fire and Movement

Postby gordonparker » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:25 pm

This just caused an big argument ...
This was a 2v2 battle 30 pts a side.
On Turn three I was the last to move, I swarmed in for my attack (I have a flying Mummy army); I killed a red shirt and a wizard and lost 1 mummy to a sniper with a saved action. All my guys had moved and attacked.
On turn 4, my opponent went directly to the attack! No movement phase and I did not get an opportunity to move.
I was told That I could not move!? I was told that since I had no saved actions from turn 3 that I could not defend myself!
We argued ...

My reading of the rules is that there is a movement phase :you move, I move (depending on initiative). Movement finishes for all players and then the combat phase begins.
The player with initiative (my opponent) fires, I respond if I choose with a counter attack and damage being somewhat simultaneous, some die, some continue. Now it is my attack phase and any of my fighters who did not defend themselves (saved actions) can now attack and any of my opponents fighters with a saved action can counter-attack.
So who's right?
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby pkbrennan » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:02 pm

If I read this correctly this was at the start of a new turn, so yes, you have all your actions available to you.
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby aoffan23 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:32 pm

gordonparker wrote:My reading of the rules is that there is a movement phase :you move, I move (depending on initiative). Movement finishes for all players and then the combat phase begins.


I think this is the root of your problem, and there are two things I'm going to address.
6. Player turns happen separately. One player does all of their stuff, and then the other player does theirs. In big battles (or small battles with big battlefields), moving simultaneously is pretty common, as long as the movement doesn't affect the actions of the other player that's moving. However, when it comes to interacting with other players, players do all of their stuff individually.
7. There are no "phases" in BrikWars. You have a set amount of things you can do in a turn, but which ones you do and in what order are up to you.

So no, you couldn't move. It was your opponent's turn, so you weren't in a position to move. However, I don't know about response actions, because that's something I've been confused about before (are player turns grouped into game turns, or are they just linked together?), but I think understanding the very core of the game a little better will help you make decisions between players.
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby Bluefog » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:04 am

The poster of this and I were discussing this earlier, and I also made a thread (and deleted it, we don't need 2) I got fed up and left the game, but don't get the wrong idea, he's a great friend and he's awesome, but I just couldn't explain to him well enough what I thought movement and attack rules were and all of a sudden I developed a pounding headache and loss of patience.

My opinion:
Any player may move and attack, but if you move and declare your action as saved you may attack as you are being attacked during another players turn. You just cannot move, only return fire/fight back.

His opinion (I think):
Once both players have finished (lets say turn 3) that actions are returned to a player and even though he/she just finished moving and attacking, as players would be starting turn 4 all actions would be returned. So even though you just finished attacking during turn 3, after all players on battlefield have finished, all actions get returned. Now, even though just last turn the mummies have flown their entire movement and attacked, he may attack back during opposing players turn 4.

Basically his mummies flew up and attacked, moving their full movement and all the mummies attacked. End of turn 3.
Turn 4 takes place and player who was just attacked by mummies attacks the mummies and player who controls mummies feels he should be able to attack back. I disagree because no actions were saved. Discuss.
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby gordonparker » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:53 pm

pkbrennan wrote:If I read this correctly this was at the start of a new turn, so yes, you have all your actions available to you.

Yes it was a new turn.
I was sure that this had to be the case, otherwise anyone who had attacked OR defended in turn 3 would be unable to attack or defend in turn 4.
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby gordonparker » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:32 pm

Bluefog wrote: he's a great friend and he's awesome,


I'm all blushy and stuff but feel the same way. You are one of the best and truest of friends. :oops:

I feel like I am still VERY inexperienced in Brikwars and rely too heavily on gaming conventions. I 'm from the pre-Squad Leader days and have some pre-conceived expectations as to how a game should work.
I found that I was getting very lost as to whose turn it was.

From the earlier response I can see the logic behind turn and attack, if actions are renewed at the beginning of a new turn.
I was sure this had to be the case otherwise any character that attacked or defended in turn 3 would be unable to act in turn 4
I think there are a few issues with the turn and attack style of play for miniatures that could be resolved if movement and combat are run as two separate phases.
However:
Is there a set turn order?
Should we roll for initiative each turn to decide turn order?
What about withdrawal from combat? Logically (admittedly my logic) my flying mummies should be able to withdraw from his more pedestrian elements.
Is it wrong to hum the flying monkeys theme from Wizard of Oz while I am playing

BTW would a resurrected bone minion be able to move in the turn that it is brought back to life?
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby Natalya » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:49 pm

I feel like response actions which are prominently featured in forum battles here may also be causing the confusion, because they are used much much much less frequently in actual battles. Uhh, so, let me explain the rules for you.


Turns in BrikWars are similar to Warhammer turns. To determine order you usually just roll dice at the start and whoever wins gets to go first and then you go either clockwise or counter-clockwise in the same order the rest of the game taking turns. In forum battles there is often a randomized order because with those there are advantages and disadvantages to always going first or last which skew the game in favour of the game master, but for an IRL BrikWars you should just stick to the same turn order unless you all agree beforehand that it will be totally random each turn. So, an example turn:

Player 1 rolled highest so he always goes first, player 2 second, player 3 third.

Turn 1:
P1 Moves
P1 Attacks
P2 Moves
P2 Attacks
P3 Moves
P3 Attacks

You would rinse and repeat for the rest of the game. Attack can be done before movement if you wish, just make sure you don't move or attack twice with the same minifig or MOC in the same turn.
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby Natalya » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:53 pm

I would say that no, a Bone Minion shouldn't be allowed to move or attack in the turn where it got revived. Unless of course you do a What I Say Goes roll and you win.
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby stubby » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:01 pm

First of all, which rulebook edition are you using? in BrikWars 2001 and earlier, there were separate movement and combat phases. In 2005 and later, there are not separate phases. I'm going to answer based on the 2005 / 2010 rules, but let me know if you need a 2001 answer instead. ( :spoil: the 2001 answer is "hey why not try 2010")

If you as a player spend Actions on your own turn, you get them back at the beginning of your own next turn. Like so:

Player 1's Turn 1:
    Player 1 moves and fires.
    Player 2's units may take Response Actions because they didn't use any of their Actions in turn zero (i.e., before the game started).

Player 2's Turn 1:
    Player 2's units have all their Actions available again.
    Player 2 moves and fires.
    Player 1's units may take Response Actions if they have Actions they didn't use in their own Turn 1.

Player 1's Turn 2:
    Player 1's units have all their Actions available again.
    Player 1 moves and fires.
    Player 2's units may take Response Actions if they have Actions they didn't use in their own Turn 1.

Player 2's Turn 2:
    Player 2's units have all their Actions available again.
    Player 2 moves and fires.
    Player 1's units may take Response Actions if they have Actions they didn't use in their own Turn 2.

Etcetera.
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby Tzan » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:10 pm

So player turns are just linked together, there are no game turns that effect movement or actions.
(Unless there is a Game scenario objective that would use that)


[ I was writing a much longer thing and then saw Stubby's post which did it much better]
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby Bluefog » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:30 pm

Thanks everyone for your quick responses. I was using 2005 rules, but was fudging my necromancer abilities. I suppose in fairness I should have to wait a turn before immediately having bone minions start combat. As far as the movement and turn questions those were thoroughly answered. My friend and I have figured it out and soon will try another game hopefully with better luck. I have to say I really like this forum people are helpful and friendly. Thanks again for everyone's help.
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby stubby » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:15 pm

Bluefog wrote:I suppose in fairness I should have to wait a turn before immediately having bone minions start combat.

BrikWars 2010, Chapter 10 wrote:Spawned units appear as close to the Spawner as reasonably possible - either in, on, or touching the Spawner itself. Spawning uses up a spawned unit's Action for the turn, so unless they have extra ones (from Multitasking or a Heroic Feat, for instance), most units will appear with their full Movement but no Action.

Under the 2010 rules, they spawn in with movement but no Action.

Bluefog wrote:I have to say I really like this forum people are helpful and friendly.

:haha: :troll:
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby Gungnir » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:25 pm

We do response actions like D&D does what's called a readied action.
Basically, you declare that you're getting ready to take an action. Riflemen aim at a window, pitchers wind up to throw, demolition workers raise their fists over the big red button, etc.
Then, on your opponent's turn, you say that you're taking your readied action as a response when you feel it's most convenient. The riflemen shoot the first head that goes past the window, the pitcher beans the batter in the head when he's not looking, the demos press the button when someone goes in to rescue the children that are still trapped inside.
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby IVhorseman » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:13 am

gordonparker wrote:I 'm from the pre-Squad Leader days and have some pre-conceived expectations as to how a game should work.


There we go, here's the problem. Brikwars definitely does not follow how games "should" work, unless the goal is to end your turn as soon as possible and not bitch about which rules actually mean what.

You CAN split your move and action phases without any penalty. Hell, you could move two inches, fire, then move another three with a regular fig. If a minifig took their action already, they do NOT have it returned to them until the BEGINNING of their turn.
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Re: Fire and Movement

Postby Bluefog » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:06 am

stubby wrote:
Bluefog wrote:I suppose in fairness I should have to wait a turn before immediately having bone minions start combat.

BrikWars 2010, Chapter 10 wrote:Spawned units appear as close to the Spawner as reasonably possible - either in, on, or touching the Spawner itself. Spawning uses up a spawned unit's Action for the turn, so unless they have extra ones (from Multitasking or a Heroic Feat, for instance), most units will appear with their full Movement but no Action.

stubby wrote:Under the 2010 rules, they spawn in with movement but no Action.


Sweeeeeet. Not gonna lie though, I did love killing people, creating a bone minion from the corpse and then attacking the minion's previous ally. It's even funnier when you use the melee weapon/hat or helmet that the minifig was wielding too for the minion's weapon.

A side note... has anyone noticed that you usually end up with two heroes battling it out at the end? Has happened like for my friends and I quite often, and we always hope for our last rolls to be a double kill so that everyone on the battle field dies.
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