Short ranges on guns?

Rules questions, suggestions, and discussion

Moderators: Pwnerade, IVhorseman

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby halo 3000 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:33 pm

IVhorseman wrote:This is pretty much the entire reason summed up. It's not an issue about realism (it should be pointed out that if you're opting for realism you are playing THE WRONG GAME SON), but one of game balance.


The old saying goes "don't bring a knife to a gunfight." haha!

But I get it. For balance purposes, yes it makes sense. On the other hand,if two players are both playing Sci Fi army's with no Melee units at all...

I don't think longer ranges=realism. I do think that players with more shooty oriented army's would experience a more dynamic game if the ranges were increased slightly.

I would opt against a separate ruleset for fantasy and for modern only because I forsee it raising more problems than it actually solves.


What sort of problems do you think would arise?
"My name is Art Vandelay. I'm an architect."~George Costanza
User avatar
halo 3000
I though bringing it up might possibly get me one
 
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:07 pm
Location: NC

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby alphafalcon541 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:51 pm

So many new supplement ideas
This sig is too fucking large: show anyway
Image
User avatar
alphafalcon541
Dimmy
 
Posts: 614
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:50 pm
Location: War torn Oregon

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Silverdream » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:29 am

@IVHorseman

Technically there would still be a reason for getting melee weapons, but they would be severely limited. Say if a squad of soldiers with rifles enters a house, suddenly a group of monkeys with chainsaws drop from the rafters onto the soldiers. Their ranged weapons are now useless against the chainsaw monkeys on their backs.
Image

Spoiler: show
mgb519 wrote:Seriously, you are now the first ever forum superhero.


Colette wrote:I hereby acknowledge Silverdream as the one and only forum troll as agreed in the bet.


Quantumsurfer wrote:No, I have 2 silver.
User avatar
Silverdream
Blockguy
 
Posts: 7772
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:33 pm
Location: Feeding my fuckin' habit.

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Ben-Jammin » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:49 am

Direct your attention here:

http://www.brikwars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11019

I had the same feelings, although I tried to diversify the ranged weapons we have outside of short-ranged and long-ranged.

Hope it helps.
User avatar
Ben-Jammin
My Little Pony
 
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:59 pm
Location: Not quite the middle of Appalachia

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby stubby » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:51 am

halo 3000 wrote:One thing that gets me about Brikwars is the overall short ranges on ranged weapons. Now this may have stemmed from playing too much 40k but I have to wonder why the relatively low ranges?

It basically boils down to this: we playtested with longer ranges and it wasn't fun. It's not even a matter of whether melee weapons are relevant (although that's a side bonus) - when the weapon ranges are too large compared to movement ranges (and to the size of the average player's tabletop and the amount of terrain you can build with the average player's brick collection), maneuvering becomes irrelevant. Everyone just grabs cover where they can, stops moving, and makes the same die rolls every turn until one guy's numbers are higher than the other's.

Your mileage may vary of course; the easiest thing to do is just play a couple games with double or triple weapon ranges and see if it matches what you're looking for more closely.

halo 3000 wrote:Oh, I agree, but still, shooting at something 12 in away shouldn't require much more skill than shooting 10in away.

Sure it does, a shot's performance characteristics change when it passes its effective range. That's why real-world weapons have a separate "effective range" and "maximum range." For projectiles, there's an airspeed threshold where the flight path stops being predictable. For fictional blaster bolts (using Star Wars physics as the reference), shots decohere after their effective range and the energy starts to scatter randomly.
User avatar
stubby
Psy.D Manchild Psychology, U. of Wikipedia
 
Posts: 4931
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:31 pm

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Quantumsurfer » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:32 pm

This has been one of my major problems with games like 40K. A lot of my armies are shooty and it really does involve a lot of standing around and rolling dice. Not enough "playing" with the figures. We'd need to design a mechanic or a series of mechanics that inspire movement, perhaps something terrain based, if we wanted longer ranged games to be interesting. Maybe something as simple as using Objectives or having terrain provide certain types of bonuses, powers, or story advantages would work. I used a very very basic version of this idea in a couple of my games and it made them much more interesting. But, make no mistake, it also made them more complicated. Nevertheless, there might be a simpler way to implement the idea than what I had going.
User avatar
Quantumsurfer
Thank god for Colette.
 
Posts: 1481
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Zupponn » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:23 pm

If you look at Mobile Frame Zero (whose ranges I have no idea about) their win condition is objective based. Adding something that all factions are going for is a great way to add an interesting element to the game, and could make someone move their shooty forces a bit or something with longer ranges.
Image
User avatar
Zupponn
Lovable and funny
Lovable and funny
 
Posts: 5809
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:15 pm
Location: Wisconsin, land of the cheese

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby stubby » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:07 am

Tried it, same thing happens. Once the ranges are larger than movement, nobody goes for the objectives, they just focus on killing each other at range so that they can claim the objective unimpeded afterwards.
User avatar
stubby
Psy.D Manchild Psychology, U. of Wikipedia
 
Posts: 4931
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:31 pm

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Apollyon » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:11 am

I always wonder if people want realism so much... why don't they just join the army?
If you're not into Metal you are not my friend!
User avatar
Apollyon
constantly striving to using proper grammar
 
Posts: 1834
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:14 am
Location: I am in Berlin bitch!

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Zupponn » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:26 am

stubby wrote:Tried it, same thing happens. Once the ranges are larger than movement, nobody goes for the objectives, they just focus on killing each other at range so that they can claim the objective unimpeded afterwards.

But what about ticking down turns like MFZ does? That way you can force your opponent to move once you have the objective and start ticking away, or start ticking and move in at the last minute to claim victory. An objective based game is going to just be a death match unless someone has a way to instantly claim victory.
Image
User avatar
Zupponn
Lovable and funny
Lovable and funny
 
Posts: 5809
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:15 pm
Location: Wisconsin, land of the cheese

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Quantumsurfer » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:33 am

Interesting. What about turn limits? Make the objectives time sensitive. That way if you dick around shooting at the opponent, you won't get to the objective in time. Of course, then, that would mean that either the maps would have to be large or that the objectives would have to be difficult to get to somehow.

Another option might be to have an objective grant a better way to shoot the shit out of your enemy. Something like a bonus to ranged attacks (at its most basic and boring, I'm sure there must be something better along these lines). That way, the shooty army that stands still is at a disadvantage. Also, two shooty armies that charge the objective end up in close combat anyway.
User avatar
Quantumsurfer
Thank god for Colette.
 
Posts: 1481
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Zupponn » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:07 am

Well, as interesting as all this sounds, it's probably easier to keep everything as it is.
Image
User avatar
Zupponn
Lovable and funny
Lovable and funny
 
Posts: 5809
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:15 pm
Location: Wisconsin, land of the cheese

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Quantumsurfer » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:59 am

Sure. And, after all, the game is Mike's.

But if Halo wants to create an optional supplement for it, well, by all means.
User avatar
Quantumsurfer
Thank god for Colette.
 
Posts: 1481
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby Tzan » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:03 pm

Well, as interesting as all this sounds, I'm still waiting to find out what "shamrocked" means.
User avatar
Tzan
Blockguy
 
Posts: 5031
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:41 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Short ranges on guns?

Postby halo 3000 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:28 pm

stubby wrote:It basically boils down to this: we playtested with longer ranges and it wasn't fun. Everyone just grabs cover where they can, stops moving, and makes the same die rolls every turn until one guy's numbers are higher than the other's.


Well, if its not fun, its not fun. I still think there has to be a way to get people moving around though.

Apollyon wrote:I always wonder if people want realism so much... why don't they just join the army?


I'm not sure why you think I'm lobbying for realism here. I'm just wanting a few extra inches on the ranges. Join the army? That doesn't even make sense. Hypothetically, just because I want my car to go faster, doesn't mean I want to be a race car driver.

Quantumsurfer wrote: I used a very very basic version of this idea in a couple of my games and it made them much more interesting. But, make no mistake, it also made them more complicated. Nevertheless, there might be a simpler way to implement the idea than what I had going.


what exactly were you doing?
"My name is Art Vandelay. I'm an architect."~George Costanza
User avatar
halo 3000
I though bringing it up might possibly get me one
 
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:07 pm
Location: NC

PreviousNext

Return to The Rulebook

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests