Revolt of the Lingoni

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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby Overwatch_Elite » Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:36 pm

Brikguy0410 wrote:Im actually more Athenian than spartan, im a mix , also im polish and french, im spartan on my dads side, athenian on my moms also they still had temples, but they really only prayed to ares, the god of war,

Yeah I agree I get all my zeus-like traits from my dad but my third eye and alien language skills are definitely more from my mom.
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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby Coriolanus » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:23 pm

Well the whole argument is really moot because I have a max of 5 hoplites, 3 of whom have gold armor and shields, and thus, considering that the Spartans did not even use gold for currency until near the end of the Peloponnesian War, are in all probability not Spartans.

I'll just call them Boeotians so that we can avoid silly, little to un-informed debates of Athens vs. Sparta.
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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby Zupponn » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:57 am

stubby wrote:Athenians and Minoans were better than Spartans in just about every way possible

Except war.
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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby Nimja » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:32 am

Zupponn wrote:
stubby wrote:Athenians and Minoans were better than Spartans in just about every way possible

Except war.

But the context was culture, not war.
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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby Coriolanus » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:47 pm

Zupponn wrote:
stubby wrote:Athenians and Minoans were better than Spartans in just about every way possible

Except war.


Excepting sea warfare, which was strategically more important, and arguably excepting generalship, then yes.
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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby Brikguy0410 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:10 pm

Coriolanus wrote:
Zupponn wrote:
stubby wrote:Athenians and Minoans were better than Spartans in just about every way possible

Except war.


Excepting sea warfare, which was strategically more important, and arguably excepting generalship, then yes.


Sea was where Athens came in to play at the battle thermopile (300) without Athens, a massive Persian fleet would of flanked the Spartans, all Greek city states except Sparta were usually at least decently versed in sea warfare, the Spartans always focused on land, on land, the Spartans were unmatched,also, they were not to some extent, the crazed berserkers the movie 300 made them out to be, the real Spartans wore far more armor than the ones in the movies, and instead of blind charges, they were a disciplined fighting force, but were brutal at the same time, they were one of the few fighting forces that managed to find the perfect balance between the two
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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby loafofcheese » Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:06 pm

I can say one good thing about greek infantry, every two soldiers was a battle couple.
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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby Silverdream » Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:19 pm

Thebes' Sacred Band was better at homeschooling. You should have dapper soldiers that love each other, not ones that are the result of indoctrination.
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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby Silent-sigfig » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:32 pm

Brikguy0410 wrote:
Coriolanus wrote:
Zupponn wrote:
stubby wrote:Athenians and Minoans were better than Spartans in just about every way possible

Except war.


Excepting sea warfare, which was strategically more important, and arguably excepting generalship, then yes.


Sea was where Athens came in to play at the battle thermopile (300) without Athens, a massive Persian fleet would of flanked the Spartans, all Greek city states except Sparta were usually at least decently versed in sea warfare, the Spartans always focused on land, on land, the Spartans were unmatched,also, they were not to some extent, the crazed berserkers the movie 300 made them out to be, the real Spartans wore far more armor than the ones in the movies, and instead of blind charges, they were a disciplined fighting force, but were brutal at the same time, they were one of the few fighting forces that managed to find the perfect balance between the two



This is correct on all accounts. In fact, during the early stages of the Peloponnesian the Athenian strategy was to surrender their land to Sparta and destroy the Spartans and their allies with their navy. This strategy would've worked too, if not for Athens getting wrecked by a Plague and a series of incompetent leaders after the death of Pericles.
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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby Coriolanus » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:01 pm

Silent-sigfig wrote:This is correct on all accounts. In fact, during the early stages of the Peloponnesian the Athenian strategy was to surrender their land to Sparta and destroy the Spartans and their allies with their navy. This strategy would've worked too, if not for Athens getting wrecked by a Plague and a series of incompetent leaders after the death of Pericles.


The plague was bad, but Athens survived that still in good shape and I'm not sure incompetent leaders was any greater problem with the Athenians than with the Spartans.

I would lay the chief cause at Athens decision to both undertake the Sicilian expedition and to try Alcibiades for a capital crime (which caused him to defect to Sparta). Had they undertaken the Sicilian expedition but left Alcibiades in command it would at least not have failed so disastrously and perhaps even have succeeded. Had they gotten rid of Alcibiades and not gone on the Sicilian expedition, they would have lost their best commander, but they would at least have retained the militarily dominant position they had achieved with the Peace of Nicias.
By doing both, they ensured the failure of the Sicilian expedition (which was slaughtered almost to a man and destroyed their superior position) and gave the Spartans an excellent adviser (he was the one who finally got the Spartans to fortify Delium [to which Thucydides attributes a large share of the eventual Athenian defeat] and to pursue a more offensive strategy than they had dared to previously.) Even though Alcibiades double-defected back to the Athenians a few years later, the damage was done and all the best ships and the highly trained oarsmen and coxswains which had been destroyed and killed in Sicily could never be recovered.

It is interesting to note that after Alcibiades became prominent after the Peace of Nicias, he was always winning, whichever side he was on, as long as he was given authority to do what he wanted. The man was unbeatable. Lysander was not able to defeat the re-built Athenian navy until Alcibiades was removed from command; and then the defeat was a direct result of the Athenian commanders disregarding a specific warning that Alcibiades had given them as a private citizen. I imagine that when I do fill out my Greek faction I will make it Athenian, just so I can have an Alcibiades hero.
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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby Silent-sigfig » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:14 pm

Coriolanus wrote:
Silent-sigfig wrote:This is correct on all accounts. In fact, during the early stages of the Peloponnesian the Athenian strategy was to surrender their land to Sparta and destroy the Spartans and their allies with their navy. This strategy would've worked too, if not for Athens getting wrecked by a Plague and a series of incompetent leaders after the death of Pericles.


Spoiler: show
The plague was bad, but Athens survived that still in good shape and I'm not sure incompetent leaders was any greater problem with the Athenians than with the Spartans.

I would lay the chief cause at Athens decision to both undertake the Sicilian expedition and to try Alcibiades for a capital crime (which caused him to defect to Sparta). Had they undertaken the Sicilian expedition but left Alcibiades in command it would at least not have failed so disastrously and perhaps even have succeeded. Had they gotten rid of Alcibiades and not gone on the Sicilian expedition, they would have lost their best commander, but they would at least have retained the militarily dominant position they had achieved with the Peace of Nicias.
By doing both, they ensured the failure of the Sicilian expedition (which was slaughtered almost to a man and destroyed their superior position) and gave the Spartans an excellent adviser (he was the one who finally got the Spartans to fortify Delium [to which Thucydides attributes a large share of the eventual Athenian defeat] and to pursue a more offensive strategy than they had dared to previously.) Even though Alcibiades double-defected back to the Athenians a few years later, the damage was done and all the best ships and the highly trained oarsmen and coxswains which had been destroyed and killed in Sicily could never be recovered.

It is interesting to note that after Alcibiades became prominent after the Peace of Nicias, he was always winning, whichever side he was on, as long as he was given authority to do what he wanted. The man was unbeatable. Lysander was not able to defeat the re-built Athenian navy until Alcibiades was removed from command; and then the defeat was a direct result of the Athenian commanders disregarding a specific warning that Alcibiades had given them as a private citizen. I imagine that when I do fill out my Greek faction I will make it Athenian, just so I can have an Alcibiades hero
.


Okay thanks. My Greek history isn't too complete. When I read Thucydides it was to focus on the philosophical part--what makes a good government and such.
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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby mercury19 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:10 pm

On the note of Thermopile, if you haven't already, you guys should read Stephen Pressfield's Gates of Fire. And any of his other books, they are dang good. He wrote about Thermopile, the Alcibiades episode, the Amizons, and tons of other stuff. I really can't vouch for the historical accuracy, but I think it's better than the 300 movie. As a story and historically. Easily the best book I've ever read, made me cry. Matter of fact, I think I'll go read it again when I finish my current book...
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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby Brikguy0410 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:36 pm

Coriolanus wrote:
Silent-sigfig wrote:This is correct on all accounts. In fact, during the early stages of the Peloponnesian the Athenian strategy was to surrender their land to Sparta and destroy the Spartans and their allies with their navy. This strategy would've worked too, if not for Athens getting wrecked by a Plague and a series of incompetent leaders after the death of Pericles.


The plague was bad, but Athens survived that still in good shape and I'm not sure incompetent leaders was any greater problem with the Athenians than with the Spartans.

I would lay the chief cause at Athens decision to both undertake the Sicilian expedition and to try Alcibiades for a capital crime (which caused him to defect to Sparta). Had they undertaken the Sicilian expedition but left Alcibiades in command it would at least not have failed so disastrously and perhaps even have succeeded. Had they gotten rid of Alcibiades and not gone on the Sicilian expedition, they would have lost their best commander, but they would at least have retained the militarily dominant position they had achieved with the Peace of Nicias.
By doing both, they ensured the failure of the Sicilian expedition (which was slaughtered almost to a man and destroyed their superior position) and gave the Spartans an excellent adviser (he was the one who finally got the Spartans to fortify Delium [to which Thucydides attributes a large share of the eventual Athenian defeat] and to pursue a more offensive strategy than they had dared to previously.) Even though Alcibiades double-defected back to the Athenians a few years later, the damage was done and all the best ships and the highly trained oarsmen and coxswains which had been destroyed and killed in Sicily could never be recovered.

It is interesting to note that after Alcibiades became prominent after the Peace of Nicias, he was always winning, whichever side he was on, as long as he was given authority to do what he wanted. The man was unbeatable. Lysander was not able to defeat the re-built Athenian navy until Alcibiades was removed from command; and then the defeat was a direct result of the Athenian commanders disregarding a specific warning that Alcibiades had given them as a private citizen. I imagine that when I do fill out my Greek faction I will make it Athenian, just so I can have an Alcibiades hero.

You have to have some Spartans man, they are just so awsome
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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby Nimja » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:44 am

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Re: Revolt of the Lingoni

Postby loafofcheese » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:25 am

Hebrew for "no they're not?" I prefer yiddish as my language of choice, as i'm about as Jewish as brikguy is spartan.
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