No Tears for piltoggs: Nazis Get BANNED

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Re: No Tears for piltoggs: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by TheCraigfulOne » Sat Aug 25, 2018 1:40 pm

Y'know, ever since Voin left I've been waiting for next big, pointless, argument over moderation to break out. Stubby replacing swastikas with penises was funny, and Silva and Kastrenzo's complaints a while back were interesting to watch, but this looks like it could be a really fun debate to watch. Keep at it you guys. :omnom: :omnom: :omnom:

More fuel for the fire: Was RobotMonkey a Piltogg or just a right-winger?

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Re: No Tears for piltoggs: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by Arkbrik » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:40 pm

bann154 wrote:However facts and laws aside if i wish to killl them all and round them up and send them to a concentration camp don't i become the Piltogg? They are still people. Nobody is born to hate another person so why should i wish upon them something that i would not want them to do to others? You harbor such hate for those you call "Piltogg cucks" yet rather then change them or try and show them the way you go online to a forum where someone gave you power and you call them names and say vile things about them, something that they do to others something they are known for, and you simply try to silence them and hope they go away. How will that change anyone? How will that help anyone?
This argument is so bad that even tho im drunk im gonna refute it all
However facts and laws aside if i wish to killl them all and round them up and send them to a concentration camp don't i become the Piltogg?
Do you wanna kill the nazis? morepower to you but Im pretty sure Natalya was just gonna ban them.
They are still people. Nobody is born to hate another person so why should i wish upon them something that i would not want them to do to others?
You mean wishing a ban on them? Uhh i don't care about being bannedf rom Piltogg forums i don't go there.
You harbor such hate for those you call "Piltogg cucks" yet rather then change them or try and show them the way
Do you seriously believe this would work
And this isn't a fucking "convince nazis that their paranoid delusions are wrong" forum, it's a BrikWars forum and Id like to keep it that way
you go online to a forum where someone gave you power and you call them names and say vile things about them, something that they do to others something they are known for
Fuck yeah
Fuck all Piltogg scum
Do you know what else nazis are known for?
That's why I call them names and say vile things about them
you simply try to silence them and hope they go away.
Try? Hope? Bitch its a banhammer to the face, aint nobody coming back from that.
How will that change anyone?
???? its not supposed to change them, it gets rid of them.
How will that help anyone?
It helps me! And anyone else who wants a Piltogg free forum.

Anyway heres the point which rayhawk has explained three billion times before me. Its impossible to have a functional forum if you aloow nazis on it. Because non nazis don't want to be on a forum where nazis are spreading their shit. So either you ban the nazis, or the non nazis start leaving. I for one would leave if nazis didn't get banned from here

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Re: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by stubby » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:33 pm

Arkbrik wrote:this isn't a fucking "convince nazis that their paranoid delusions are wrong" forum, it's a BrikWars forum and Id like to keep it that way
Whoa, I leave for a week and look what happens. Anyway Arkbrik is winning this one as far as I'm concerned.

The rules of the forum are anyone gets banned if a mod thinks the forum would be better without you. Arkbrik's rule up there is a good representative sample of the kind of basis on which that judgment is made. There's not some big Rulebook of Ban Bylaws for all the rules lawyers to appeal over, point-by-point; it's quick and easy. If you're acting like an asshole, bye.

BrikWars isn't a public forum, it's a private space where your membership has to be approved before you're invited to participate, and that invitation can be revoked. If a stranger breaks into your house and starts spray-painting swastikas on the walls and making rambling pronouncements that your family members deserve death, that's not "free speech," that's somebody fucking up your house and making threats. ACLU isn't going to show up and fight for that guy's frozen peaches.

I've been pretty lax in earlier years about letting people come in here and present offensive ideas from all different ends of the political / philosophical / religious spectra for the purpose of examining them from different angles and satirizing them in brick form. Once it bleeds over into proselytizing and evangelizing, it crosses over into being irritating enough for a temp-ban, regardless of which -ism they come from. And then once it goes into dehumanization of other forum members, it's perma-ban territory. (And no, banning somebody isn't dehumanizing them as a person, it's cutting off a behavior that doesn't fit here. Their ability to go engage in that same behavior anywhere else isn't affected in any way.)

Nowadays I'm less tolerant of hate and hate speech in general (see Attack Minifigs, Not People), even the "haha j/k only not really" kind, since we see how laissez-faire "all speech is free speech" has balkanized the internet and made it toxic for everybody whether they're on a side or not. (On that note, addressing the other side here, you can't go around calling people piltoggs, no matter how worked up you are about nazis.)

There's an extra side angle from guys on the right who get all pissy about the "tolerant left" strawman they made up, because they want to put forward the idea that anyone who bans them could only possibly be doing so because they're on the right and not because they're acting like assholes. But this is a wargaming forum. Many or even most of the people here are right-leaning, because treating war as entertainment is an inherently right-leaning activity. 99% of our right-leaning members never draw moderator attention at all. How is that possible? Because they're not assholes about it. It's super easy.

One of the easiest ways to not be an asshole is just to not be a Piltogg in the first place. A second easy way, if you're compelled to be a Piltogg, is to treat it like shitting. Shitting is appropriate in a toilet. If you do it in my living room, it's not appropriate. I'm not making any laws about whether you can shit or not, I'm just asking you to take it to breitbart or stormfront or wherever you go to spray shit all over everything around yourself in an appropriate setting, or you're not allowed in my living room anymore.
Natalya wrote:Wtf is going on in this thread?

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Re: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by stubby » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:08 pm

Arkbrik wrote:
How will that change anyone?
???? its not supposed to change them, it gets rid of them.
How will that help anyone?
It helps me! And anyone else who wants a Piltogg free forum.
This is the crux of it. This isn't a place where that change is going to happen; it's tough to change people's beliefs in real life, and it's impossible in online debate. And in any case if you're broken, you can't make it everyone else's fault for not fixing you. If you're not doing the work to fix yourself, no one else can do it for you, because that's not how brains work.

The one thing that has been shown to have any effect for convincing people to get their shit together is to set boundaries and enforce them.

Our job isn't to fix nazis. Our job is to create a functional space free of nazis, so that the non-nazis can get some Piltogg-free work done. If a couple of nazis don't get to play toys with the rest of us, boo fuckin' hoo.
Natalya wrote:Wtf is going on in this thread?

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Re: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by TheCraigfulOne » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:14 pm

stubby wrote:But this is a wargaming forum. Many or even most of the people here are right-leaning, because treating war as entertainment is an inherently right-leaning activity.
Um . . . what? Isn't it usually the right that likes to blame video games and movies for mass shootings? The N.R.A. loves treating violent media as its scapegoat for every disturbed teenager with a military-grade weapon.

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Re: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by stubby » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:27 pm

TheVengefulOne wrote:Um . . . what? Isn't it usually the right that likes to blame video games and movies for mass shootings? The N.R.A. loves treating violent media as its scapegoat for every disturbed teenager with a military-grade weapon.
Don't think I don't see you over there trying to bait me, you sneak.

There's a difference between "The Right" as currently portrayed in western politics, and "right-leaning" as a category of political thought. A whole lot of "The Right's" ideas are extremely left, and vice-versa; The Right and The Left as cultural identities are tribal affiliations for scoring points off each other more than they're anything to do with rightist or leftist philosophical platforms.

The idea of treating people as resources to serve a function, of subserving their obedience to the goals of an institutionalized power like a nation or corporation, is rightist. The idea of using military strength to effect outcomes is also rightist. Treating people as disposable toy figures to engage in military campaigns for nothing more than their all-controlling owners' entertainment is about as pure an expression of rightist political philosophy as exists.
Natalya wrote:Wtf is going on in this thread?

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Re: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by Duerer » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:56 pm

What a lot of these think pieces fail to comprehend is that the opinions held by these kind of people aren't on the same level as "Chicken tastes better than beef." or "Lowering the retirement age over here won't hurt." but instead are about whether certain groups of people are to be considered as such or if these should be outright subjugated or straight up killed, based on their identity alone. I really have trouble seeing how allowing spreading any of these views really add to a healthy forum environment and it's kinda weird to me that this no-Piltogg-rule that existed for years is now something super controversial for certain people.
stubby wrote:(On that note, addressing the other side here, you can't go around calling people piltoggs, no matter how worked up you are about nazis.)
Correct, especially if you consider that this word has been used for Germans in general since as early as 1918, regardless of their political alignment.
Last edited by Duerer on Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by TheCraigfulOne » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:56 pm

stubby wrote:The idea of treating people as resources to serve a function, of subserving their obedience to the goals of an institutionalized power like a nation or corporation, is rightist. The idea of using military strength to effect outcomes is also rightist. Treating people as disposable toy figures to engage in military campaigns for nothing more than their all-controlling owners' entertainment is about as pure an expression of rightist political philosophy as exists.
I think I understand your point now. It's just that growing up I often heard the Bible used as an excuse for censorship of violent/sexual materials (like BrikWars). Perhaps that's not so much a "Right" issue as a "religious lunatic" issue.

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Re: No Tears for piltoggs: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by RedRover » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:16 pm

So anyone going to answer my question about Trion or what?

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Re: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by stubby » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:53 pm

TheVengefulOne wrote:I think I understand your point now. It's just that growing up I often heard the Bible used as an excuse for censorship of violent/sexual materials (like BrikWars). Perhaps that's not so much a "Right" issue as a "religious lunatic" issue.
Religion is another example of institutionalized power, so it counts too. Even forum administration counts. When I unilaterally put the needs of the forum above the freedom of the individual forum members, that's rightist authoritarianism in action.
Natalya wrote:Wtf is going on in this thread?

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Re: No Tears for piltoggs: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by TheCraigfulOne » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:32 pm

RedRover wrote:So anyone going to answer my question about Trion or what?
Not sure whether or not there's any precedent for this case, but I would imagine people will now continue using Trion as a cameo faction, but avoid making major changes to leadership/alignment/etc. Not that there's any set rules, but I'd feel like a dick if I used the faction in a way completely different from how it was intended.

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Re: No Tears for piltoggs: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by Colette » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:16 pm

TheVengefulOne wrote:
RedRover wrote:So anyone going to answer my question about Trion or what?
Not sure whether or not there's any precedent for this case, but I would imagine people will now continue using Trion as a cameo faction, but avoid making major changes to leadership/alignment/etc. Not that there's any set rules, but I'd feel like a dick if I used the faction in a way completely different from how it was intended.
Robot Monkey has given me full control and ownership of the Trion Empire from now on. I have screenshot proof from Discord PMs (edited to remove personal info). You can also confirm with him directly if you want to put up with his obnoxious alt-rightism.

Also, it does seem kind of sudden of Natalya, but technically being a Piltogg has been against the rules for years already.

While we're talking about both faction handovers and Nazis, I destroyed my Space Nazis during my move due to lack of space and handed over control and ownership of them to Duerer (idk if that was recorded anywhere on the forums before, I don't think I've posted a lot of my post-move armory updates).

Also because Space Nazis were a lot more fun back when they were historical video game monsters and not empowered IRL modern murderers.
Last edited by Colette on Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No Tears for piltoggs: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by TheCraigfulOne » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:29 pm

Natalya wrote:Chat Update:
Wet Bagel
Robot Monkey
Colette


ALL BANNED
Natalya wrote:I banned them for being a bunch of Piltogg shits.

Except wet bagel, he's banned because he's generally annoying to begin with, but now also possibly a pedo and//or just creepy enough that I don't give a fuck whether or not he actually is a pedo.

But he might be a pedo. :pedo:
So who gets control of Trion once Colette gets banned from BrikWars since Natalya thinks he's a Piltogg?

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Re: No Tears for piltoggs: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by Duerer » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:37 pm

Colette wrote:While we're talking about both faction handovers and Nazis, I destroyed my Space Nazis during my move due to lack of space and handed over control and ownership of them to Duerer (idk if that was recorded anywhere on the forums before, I don't think I've posted a lot of my post-move armory updates).
Not to sound mean but I've already spent enough time to de-nazify mine so I'm not even really sure whether I really wanna do anything with these. At most, I'd kill them all of in their pocket galaxy by a black hole or something and be done with them.
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Re: No Tears for piltoggs: Nazis Get BANNED

Post by Tzan » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:27 am

So ... no enemies list huh? :(

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